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China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

latimes.com

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Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

pagnotta wrote: post #35
dragonwriter wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American media call Mugabe a dictator and call Cameroon's President a "chief of state", but both countries hold the same kind of elections. "Chief of state" and "dictator" are orthogonal descriptions. "Chief of state" describes the ceremonial head of any state, whether or not they are actually the head of government, and whether or not they are elected, and whether or not they exercise dictatorial power. "Dictator"…

I know that very well. The same goes for the term "President". I didn't say the terms are mutually exclusive, the point is the way they choose the terms to describe those considered allies and those considered enemies.

> the point is the way they choose the terms to describe those considered allies and those considered enemies.

Well, you said that they were described differently despite being subject to the same kind of elections -- but the kind of election is only distantly relevant to whether someone is a "dictator", and not at all relevant to whether they are a "chief of state". It would be more relevant if you described a similarity that was relevant to the applicability of those descriptions, rather than one with limited relevance to either description.

Of course, the idea that the US media describes Paul Biya of Cameroon as a "chief of state" and not a "dictator" is also false; see, e.g., http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-worlds-enduring-dictators-pa...

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#42

Post by wyager »

screwedup wrote: post #3

Before you start thinking "oh, those crazy Chinese...", remember that many people in the USA (and other western countries) fervently believe that we should do the same thing.

I've even seen support for such measures here on HN. The most popular justification is "to fight cyber-bullying".

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#43

Post by malandrew »

pagnotta wrote: post #20

It is funny how american media is eager to depict China as a North-Korea, and how americans opinions end being formed by their partial media in the same way it happens under dictatorships. Have spent a decade in China, I have yet to see a cop carrying a gun. Cops in China are way more friendly than in US, and for me, way more trustable. people think they keep the chinese people under fear and draconian control, but i…

Go to Xinjiang. Many of the police there carried automatic weapons. It was basically an occupied country AFAICT. This was back in 2006. I don't know how things are today. I reckon that the policy of "ethnic cleansing by dilution" might have changed things, at least in Urumqi. Kashgar I reckon has the same occupied country vibe.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#44

Post by dmix »

api wrote: post #34
dmix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the citizenry is constantly fed lines how 'China is not bad, don't listen to the foreign critics, just look at all the awful things the West does'. Pretty easy way to never look at yourself critically and fix problems. The west is bad sure, but why does that mean China can't be better? The self-maintained status quo by the citizens in China is incredibly strong. This is by design.

America is simply much more sophisticated in its methods of mass control. China deploys primitive ham-fisted stuff like web controls and their "great firewall," while America is much more skilled in the fine-grained use of soft power and propaganda to achieve the same effects. American oligarchs know better than to whack people indiscriminately with crude mallets or to show their hand too overtly. My guess would be t…

Great point. I'd go even further and say this is the natural outcome of representative democracy which naturally leads to a form of oligarchy. The 'representative' part is always given way too much credit as a means to fix problems, and is the means to placate the public, when the examples of it actually fixing the publics problems are limited but the only thing that matters is the perception.

The representatives more often reinforces existing power-structures over the interest of their voters. The effects of which is mostly unnoticeable - at first - and seems like it's an effective working model, but after a century or more the cracks in the model start to show. The power structures which were slowly reinforced over time start to become powerhouses and the wealth division becomes exponential.

It's like a slow moving wave which the public continues to lose more and more ability to do anything about.

Whereas China started with the tidal wave and is busy pretending everything is OK because America has reached a similar place.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#45

Post by freehunter »

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #27

This isn't the craziest idea in the world. Trolls can be distracting and a ton of garbage to discussions. This isn't one of those "evil Chinese laws" in my opinion. But I guess I'm posting this as someone using their legal name so there's that.

Someone trolling an Internet discussion board shouldn't result in a federal law removing all privacy from everyone. The trolls might stop, but what about government critics who are now being silenced because they will be killed if they reveal their real name?

You might not have to worry about your government breaking down your door if you post something negative about your politicians. Some people in other countries do.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#46

Post by bad_user »

marvin wrote: post #12
hyperpape wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one can think both that the Chinese government is exceptionally repressive and be scared how many people in the West might be willing to follow their lead. Thankfully, I don't think a real names policy has much chance in the US for the time being.

Most Norwegian newspapers enforce a full-name policy in their comments sections. Which is frankly ridiculous; anyone who seriously wants to troll just comes up with a fake name. But it's very worrying that this is taken seriously by people in our own society.

Don't know the quality of Norwegian comments on newspapers, but if it's anything like what happens in my country, I can understand them asking for full names. In short, stupid and mean, really mean, YouTube-style. Of course, a full name policy doesn't help. Even when the comments section is powered by Facebook, with most users having real names and being sort of trackable, you still get the same stupid and mean comments, because let's face it, a majority of us on the web are stupid and mean.

I'm really against nation wide policies, but on the other hand here we're talking about web properties. Personally I don't care when those shitty newspapers that I don't even read demanding full names. For one it's their right to do so. And also, as long as this isn't by law, it means that you always have alternatives and that's what competition is about. I mean, really, Reddit has 10 times more users than the population of your country and my country combined.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#47

Post by freehunter »

arca_vorago wrote: post #9
screwedup wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is a decision by a private company (which you can get around by using a different service) and one is a mandate from the government.

Given both Googles and Facebooks origin funding, I think a debate could be had about this point.

Even if they're funded by the government, the government doesn't stop you from posting anywhere else.

If you don't like Facebook forcing you to use your real name, Hacker News will let you use a name like freehunter (most certainly not my real name).

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#48

Post by yongjik »

South Korea tried that several years ago. The outcome was (well, apart from gross restriction of freedom of expression) that every small and large websites were legally required to ask for people's personal identifying information and store it somewhere. There were several popular incidents where millions of people's information were hacked, and who knows how many incidents were there that wasn't publicized.

These days it's safe to assume that the name and Residential Registration Number of pretty much every South Korean is floating somewhere in China. (Well, at least the law is gone now...)

Glad that China is following our lead.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#49

Post by sholanozie »

api wrote: post #34
dmix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the citizenry is constantly fed lines how 'China is not bad, don't listen to the foreign critics, just look at all the awful things the West does'. Pretty easy way to never look at yourself critically and fix problems. The west is bad sure, but why does that mean China can't be better? The self-maintained status quo by the citizens in China is incredibly strong. This is by design.

America is simply much more sophisticated in its methods of mass control. China deploys primitive ham-fisted stuff like web controls and their "great firewall," while America is much more skilled in the fine-grained use of soft power and propaganda to achieve the same effects. American oligarchs know better than to whack people indiscriminately with crude mallets or to show their hand too overtly. My guess would be t…

Just wanted to say that this is spot on, in my opinion. After watching a documentary about North Korea recently, I couldn't help but feel like our Western governments are guilty of the exact same things that we openly mock North Korea for. The only difference is that we, over hundreds (perhaps thousands) of years, have mastered the art of disguising the mechanisms by which we control the population.

Re: China tightens Web controls; commenters must register real names

#50

Post by hga »

Canada wrote: post #40
hga wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As US custom (e.g. the Federalist Papers) and jurisprudence has anonymity so strongly established, it's hard for me to see such a thing here without a simultaneous hot civil war. It would tread on a very important part of our Constitutionally enshrined core political free speech.

Your federal government is conducting warrantless searches without any claim of probable cause, at every airport and on public transportation systems in your cities. There is no hot civil war.

And lots of us have replied by no longer using airports (I believe you grossly overstate the searches in public transportation system. Or my sources on VIPR etc. are woefully inadequate, not to mention my friends and my own personal experiences on the DC Metro and the Boston MBTA systems). It is possible, it's even convenient or required for many people.

That's very different from a nationwide, you can't escape this without breaking the law, outlawing of anonymous speech in one or more media.

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