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Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

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Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#41
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

My guess would be that it starts with the assumption that "China is cheaper", and that makes for an easy story to tell to investors "we're making XYZ in China!". The second you say "we're making it in Texas", it opens you up to questions of "isn't that expensive?"

On the face of it, I'm sure the up-front quote from a Chinese manufacturer is cheaper than something in the USA. Where costs skyrocket is when something goes wrong: the parts are wrong, the products aren't ready on time, something was done incorrectly, etc. If you don't have a manufacturer you can trust, one of those will happen, and is almost impossible to diagnose from the US.

Even if all of that works out, there are other things to consider: costs (and time) of shipping. Want it in a week? Well, get ready to pay. Even if you ship it air freight consolidated, it's still not cheap. If you want it on a boat, there's a good chunk of time to think about.

On top of THAT, there are all sorts of fun import tariffs and such to deal with (at least on the US side). Get ready to front money for an import bond, for starters! And there may already be some hidden costs of importing into the US: if you use some TI parts that have to be imported into China, you're going to be paying taxes twice.

A lot of those things are likely not looked at in the low quote from a Chinese manufacturer. They're costs that can/will show up later along the line.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#42
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

What type of cost difference are we talking about? I am aware some countries you can import a finished good and pay not as much, import TAX wise compared with a far higher cost to import the components needed. There in is the crux I believe for many countries. The access to the components needed at a competitive price and that is without the production cost.

Though would you pay a bit more for something made locally? I would and certainly makes an appeal for many. Now if only there was a way for TAX to fix this and make local production competative and for me the only way is to impose some green TAX factoring in all that extra travel. Though many components are not made local, so that may even cost out cheaper to make abroad still.

But the feel of buying something made locally or at least in your own country/continent does have a monetary premium that many would accept.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#43
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

What type of cost difference are we talking about? I am aware some countries you can import a finished good and pay not as much, import TAX wise compared with a far higher cost to import the components needed. There in is the crux I believe for many countries. The access to the components needed at a competitive price and that is without the production cost.

Though would you pay a bit more for something made locally? I would and certainly makes an appeal for many. Now if only there was a way for TAX to fix this and make local production competative and for me the only way is to impose some green TAX factoring in all that extra travel. Though many components are not made local, so that may even cost out cheaper to make abroad still.

But the feel of buying something made locally or at least in your own country/continent does have a monetary premium that many would accept.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#44
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

What type of cost difference are we talking about? I am aware some countries you can import a finished good and pay not as much, import TAX wise compared with a far higher cost to import the components needed. There in is the crux I believe for many countries. The access to the components needed at a competitive price and that is without the production cost.

Though would you pay a bit more for something made locally? I would and certainly makes an appeal for many. Now if only there was a way for TAX to fix this and make local production competative and for me the only way is to impose some green TAX factoring in all that extra travel. Though many components are not made local, so that may even cost out cheaper to make abroad still.

But the feel of buying something made locally or at least in your own country/continent does have a monetary premium that many would accept.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#45
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

My guess would be that it starts with the assumption that "China is cheaper", and that makes for an easy story to tell to investors "we're making XYZ in China!". The second you say "we're making it in Texas", it opens you up to questions of "isn't that expensive?"

On the face of it, I'm sure the up-front quote from a Chinese manufacturer is cheaper than something in the USA. Where costs skyrocket is when something goes wrong: the parts are wrong, the products aren't ready on time, something was done incorrectly, etc. If you don't have a manufacturer you can trust, one of those will happen, and is almost impossible to diagnose from the US.

Even if all of that works out, there are other things to consider: costs (and time) of shipping. Want it in a week? Well, get ready to pay. Even if you ship it air freight consolidated, it's still not cheap. If you want it on a boat, there's a good chunk of time to think about.

On top of THAT, there are all sorts of fun import tariffs and such to deal with (at least on the US side). Get ready to front money for an import bond, for starters! And there may already be some hidden costs of importing into the US: if you use some TI parts that have to be imported into China, you're going to be paying taxes twice.

A lot of those things are likely not looked at in the low quote from a Chinese manufacturer. They're costs that can/will show up later along the line.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#46
In the NYC area, there's http://www.refactory.co/. I used to work with these guys, and they know their stuff.

They argue in favor of both designing and manufacturing locally. A quote from their blog: "If you kind of just prototype something and bring it to China expecting that then thousands of these things can be made easily without understanding the processes and materiality of manufacturing, that is gonna be a big problem for you. What works is when the design process is iterated alongside the manufacturing process."

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#47
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

> why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with?

It's because the market has become incredibly price-driven, especially the consumer electronics market.

People have seen the prices for Chinese-manufactured gizmos, and now there is an expectation that any new device will be priced similarly. Nobody takes into account that the device the hardware startup is building is innovative and likely much better (more complicated) than the existing gizmos, and that the hardware startup is nowhere near the volumes required to get low pricing. As a result, there is a pressure for lower prices, and lower priced electronics are only attainable in China (for the time being).

This is somewhat similar to what seems to be happening in the mobile app business: there is a race to the bottom and common expectation is that an app won't cost more than a couple of dollars.

I think the author of the article is right: at low volumes, when you do R&D and iterate, you won't even get the economies of scale that China can provide. The problem is that it isn't always possible to manufacture locally, because local manufacturers might not be ready for your low-volume, inexperienced business.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#48
post #4

I have backed a half dozen Kickstarters and Indigogos that were hardware based (consumer electronics) and chose to manufacture in China. Seeing the time and money they spend in order to fly someone over to China to troubleshoot and issue with manufacturing or testing has left me wondering - why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with? > Is it because they assume that despite the initial cost ov…

> why do small startups choose to manufacture in China to begin with?

It's a variation on the premature optimization theme.

They think they will be volume buyers so they outsource the development to the same place that will be doing the manufacturing (China, usually).

But they forget that the design is a very interactive process and that manufacturing is much less so if you just outsource at 'board level'.

The story earlier about 'one-wheel' was a pretty good example of how you should start up your manufacturing. I'm sure that once they hit the volumes where outsourcing makes sense they'll do so but by then they will have an excellent idea of how to set up a quality control pipeline around their product to make sure they will continue to deliver quality products.

Re: Hardware startups should consider local manufacturing

#49
Those costs in China are too high. I've lived in Shenzhen for under $70 USD / week in a hostel. If you eat out every meal for 100 RMB, you're not even going to be spending $350 a week for meals. While I agree that if you can do it locally, do it locally, but those numbers for the cost of living and travel in China are inaccurate.
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