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How Paul Graham Is Wrong

ma.tt

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Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#41

Post by YuriNiyazov »

jamiemchale wrote: post #13

Isn't there a tremendous upside to being physically co-located? Even if the teams are remote, are the founders not usually located in a 'tech hub' city (SF, NY, etc.)? Matt says to let people 'live someplace remarkable', but for most of the world that want to work in technology SF is someplace remarkable. The benefits of using group collaboration tools are still available, but you have other people working on overlap…

The downsides of mass immigration are have a tremendous downside, comparable to the upside of being physically co-located. For example, the skyrocketing living costs in US cities.

Trying to solve the problems that get in the way of making remote work as seamless as co-location seem to be technical, which are easier than the fundamental problems of economics.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#42

Post by walshemj »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #33
walshemj wrote: post #28

Oh dear sorry to rain on your parade experience shows that the way to get the best performance is collocated teams of developers ideally coloacted with the end customer. I know this isn't what a lot of HN readers want to hear but I bet Paul and many other VC's would bear me out.

Do you actually have data on this, or is this completely anecdotal?

30+ years of experience also read steve McConnell.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#43

Post by wavefunction »

walshemj wrote: post #28

Oh dear sorry to rain on your parade experience shows that the way to get the best performance is collocated teams of developers ideally coloacted with the end customer. I know this isn't what a lot of HN readers want to hear but I bet Paul and many other VC's would bear me out.

Sounds great, as long as you're only interested in selling to the Bay area I guess.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#44

Post by photomatt »

If you do this right, there's no "remote", there's no "overseas", there's no day-to-day distinction in how someone works between whether that person happens to live in the country the company was founded or not.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#45

Post by walshemj »

rifung wrote: post #14
jfaucett wrote: post #10

The author is forgetting that this is very unattractive for remote developers. Maybe not so bad if you live in a country without decent health insurance and retirement, but for others you'd lose these benefits by becoming a contractor. EDIT: being more explicit I was specifically thinking of remote workers from other countries when writing this statement. Obviously, remote work within the U.S. wouldn't make you a con…

Excuse me for being completely ignorant of this kind of thing, but why does working remotely automatically mean you are a contractor? Is it not possible to work remotely as a normal employee? Perhaps there needs to be a distinction between remote workers elsewhere in the US and international ones as well. I imagine there are many talented developers elsewhere in the US that don't want to live in SV.

Presumably you would have to set up and run a subsidiary in the country

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#46

Post by fecak »

It's interesting how many commenters read "remote" as "contract" or even "overseas". There are lots of developers outside of SF, NYC, Chicago, etc. that would relish the opportunity to still live their suburban/rural lifestyle and avoid a lengthy commute.

One advantage for companies in big cities is they can usually hire these remote employees at a discount. It can get a bit hairy when two remote employees doing the same job are paid differently, but that is already the case in many situations.

The other obvious advantage is that companies that hire remote employees have an almost unlimited candidate pool. Even if a company chose to limit hires to their own country, the only group they cannot hire would be candidates unwilling to work remotely. Based on my discussions with thousands of programmers over the years, I'd suspect this is a very small group.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#47

Post by photomatt »

jasode wrote: post #38

>Use WordPress and P2, use Slack, use G+ Hangouts, use Skype, use any of the amazing technology that allows us to collaborate as effectively online as previous generations of company did offline. I've been a 100% remote worker for 5+ years but I think we have to be honest here. All those teleconferencing/videoconferencing/virtualwhiteboards/etc are not as effective as everyone sharing the same physical workspace. Yes…

Not that valuations are the end-all be-all, but Automattic was valued above a billion earlier in the year, and has risen since then: http://www.techmeme.com/140505/p14#a140505p14

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#48

Post by walshemj »

jfaucett wrote: post #37
TimPC wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting SF type pay in a place with rural US type cost of living makes it quite easy to afford decent health insurance and your own personal retirement savings. Not everyone can be a contractor, and there is a lot more planning and responsibility with managing the larger pool of money yourself and getting the key things you need, but saying it's very unattractive is extreme. In fact, I'd be more comfortable with fund…

From my perspective "living in germany" it would be very unattractive unless I were to earn substantially large sums. I would never be eligible for german retirement, would have to purchase the more expensive private ensurance, and would lose a lot of what I've paid in until now. So that is what I would stand to lose. I definately see how looking at from within the US this could be completely different, and there you…

So self employed people in Germany cannot set up their own company and pay the social security tax that way and build up an entitlement to benefits?

Would take me less than a week to do that in the UK for a PLC.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#49

Post by kareemm »

jasode wrote: post #38

>Use WordPress and P2, use Slack, use G+ Hangouts, use Skype, use any of the amazing technology that allows us to collaborate as effectively online as previous generations of company did offline. I've been a 100% remote worker for 5+ years but I think we have to be honest here. All those teleconferencing/videoconferencing/virtualwhiteboards/etc are not as effective as everyone sharing the same physical workspace. Yes…

> A lot of startups have ambitious goals and very hard technical challenges and you can't compete with a team made up of 99% remote workers. I see no evidence that this has ever been successfully done.

MySQL was a 1B company and built with a remote team:

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/03/07/1826212/former...

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#50

Post by barce »

This is a great how to article on remote management. The tools he lists are all there. The author mentions Skype, Slack, G+ Hangouts, and then surprisingly WordPress. Would the author care to discuss how he specifically has used WordPress to remote manage a team? I think the issue is that most managers don't want to remote manage which makes me wonder, "Why?"
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