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What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com

41–50 of 69 posts

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#41

I'm not buying the Demographic Theory of Senescence. > Aging is nature’s way of leveling out the death rate, assuring that we don’t all die at the same time. Aging puts our deaths on an individual schedule so we can die at different times; other causes of death tend to kill everyone or no one. It's a magical "group selection" hand-wavy argument—it sounds nice and is kind of heart-warming, but when making an evolution…

Here are a grab bag of overviews on evolutionary theories of aging, of which there are many, and these don't even cover some of the more recent epicycles, such as explanations for runaway longevity competition in some sessile species:

http://www.senescence.info/evolution_of_aging.html

http://longevity-science.org/Evolution.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_ageing

Group selection isn't as dead as you might think; I've seen it show up in a number of places in evolutionary considerations of aging over the years. But then the field of aging as a whole is very reluctant to let go of any of its hypotheses.

Insofar as there is any consensus on the evolutionary reasons for aging in multicellular organisms, it is along the lines of aging providing a necessary state of life history to provide a selection advantage in conditions of environmental change. Functionally immortal or at least negligibly senescent species clearly can exist, as there are some in the wild at present, but in near every niche that life history option has been outcompeted by aging species. Here is one expression of that idea, which again you'll see is veering into group selection:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.4649

"Understanding why we age is a long-lived open problem in evolutionary biology. Aging is prejudicial to the individual and evolutionary forces should prevent it, but many species show signs of senescence as individuals age. Here, I will propose a model for aging based on assumptions that are compatible with evolutionary theory: i) competition is between individuals; ii) there is some degree of locality, so quite often competition will between parents and their progeny; iii) optimal conditions are not stationary, mutation helps each species to keep competitive. When conditions change, a senescent species can drive immortal competitors to extinction. This counter-intuitive result arises from the pruning caused by the death of elder individuals. When there is change and mutation, each generation is slightly better adapted to the new conditions, but some older individuals survive by random chance. Senescence can eliminate those from the genetic pool. Even though individual selection forces always win over group selection ones, it is not exactly the individual that is selected, but its lineage. While senescence damages the individuals and has an evolutionary cost, it has a benefit of its own. It allows each lineage to adapt faster to changing conditions. We age because the world changes."

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#42

I'm not buying the Demographic Theory of Senescence. > Aging is nature’s way of leveling out the death rate, assuring that we don’t all die at the same time. Aging puts our deaths on an individual schedule so we can die at different times; other causes of death tend to kill everyone or no one. It's a magical "group selection" hand-wavy argument—it sounds nice and is kind of heart-warming, but when making an evolution…

I'm way out of my league here, but what if aging is just the way to evolve and adapt. If there were no natural deaths, beings with the same genes would be around forever, with no possibility for its species to adapt to a new environment.

Any reproduction would be just creating more competition for resources if one expect to live forever. So there would be no deaths, but also no births, no mutations.

If there was no death we still would be just - what is the first life form to age? protofishes? populating the oceans until the salinity (?) changes and we were all dead.

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you translate that for someone who skimmed to "weight on belly versus weight in backpack" ?

Natural selection only molds us up to the point where we procreate and ensure the survival of our offspring. After that (say age 50), we're winging it. Mild stressors that would occur naturally - physical exertion, exposure, hunger; it is perfectly logical that natural selection would favour those who handle these circumstances well.

Counterpoint: the grandmother hypothesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't it be at the bottom of the pack then ?

No, the bottom of the pack is completely outside (behind) the hips. If you put it at the top of the pack, you'll naturally bend forward slightly to an equilibrium between your torso and your backpack, the top of the pack will be roughly above the hips.

Exactly why you see the head basket carrying in many countries that have to do long haul water carrying.

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#46
Searching for articles with the keyword "hormesis" (a word I first learned in the latest book by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, who is not a person with medical training or experience) on the Science-Based Medicine website is instructive.[1] The concept of "hormesis" is not well thought out enough or well validated enough with careful measurements to be your guide to your personal health practices. There is better health advice in some of the earlier comments here.

Thank you to the several commenters who have already politely pointed out factual and logical mistakes in this submission. We can do better for reading matter to be submitted to Hacker News. "Essentially there are two rules here: don't post or upvote crap links, and don't be rude or dumb in comment threads."[2]

[1] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=hormesis

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#47
post #42

I'm not buying the Demographic Theory of Senescence. > Aging is nature’s way of leveling out the death rate, assuring that we don’t all die at the same time. Aging puts our deaths on an individual schedule so we can die at different times; other causes of death tend to kill everyone or no one. It's a magical "group selection" hand-wavy argument—it sounds nice and is kind of heart-warming, but when making an evolution…

I'm way out of my league here, but what if aging is just the way to evolve and adapt. If there were no natural deaths, beings with the same genes would be around forever, with no possibility for its species to adapt to a new environment. Any reproduction would be just creating more competition for resources if one expect to live forever. So there would be no deaths, but also no births, no mutations. If there was no d…

Yea, coming from the background assumption of "everything comes from the same thing", it seems more interesting to me that we have consciousness to experience, rather than the curiosity that we age and die. Age and death are phenomena we observe of ourselves, a thing that is constantly changing yet fundamentally the same thing.

It's a philosophical quirk, but it really depends on your existential and universal (philosophies / beliefs / religions). Things you must assume, basically, in order to make meaning from what is otherwise, pure logic (structural arrangement) and pure state (instances of that structure).

The idea that aging and death are undesirable is a complex phenomena to begin with. A rock does not care that the water slowly washes it away to shape it into a new form, yet humans have very discerning opinions on the matter across all phenomena they observe. Every explanation humanity manufactures seems to have some bias.

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#48

I'm not buying the Demographic Theory of Senescence. > Aging is nature’s way of leveling out the death rate, assuring that we don’t all die at the same time. Aging puts our deaths on an individual schedule so we can die at different times; other causes of death tend to kill everyone or no one. It's a magical "group selection" hand-wavy argument—it sounds nice and is kind of heart-warming, but when making an evolution…

Yes, it is group selection, and group selection has been badly maligned for almost 50 years now. But a large body of literature confirms group selection. See David Wilson's book, Unto Others. Group selection is especially effective in the case of population dynamics. See Michael Gilpin's monograph, Group Selection in Predator-Prey Communities.

And the Demographic Theory has been validated in computer models http://mathforum.org/~josh/LogiSen-EER.pdf and http://mathforum.org/~josh/PRLS4Oikos.pdf

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#49
post #3

There are some questionable assertions in this article. eg, "Survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings had lower cancer rates later in life than people of similar age who had not been exposed to radiation " has the ref http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/095530006010859... which a) has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and b) found that low dose radiation in fact increased cancer risk (shock!)…

Also: "Paraquat is the chemical name for the active ingredient in Agent Orange." In reality, paraquat is very different from the active ingredients in Agent Orange (2,4-D and 2,4,5-T). For instance, a molecule of paraquat contains 2 nitrogen atoms and no oxygen atoms whereas a molecule of 2,4-D or 2,4,5-T contains no nitrogen and 3 oxygen atoms. The only similarity between them that I know of is that they are both us…

Thank you for the correction. I was relying on my memory rather than looking up the chemistry. I regret that I'll have to remove the reference to the US atrocities in Vietnam, but I suppose I'll take that up another day...

Re: What Doesn’t Kill Me Makes Me Stronger

#50

I had a friend who was telling everybody : "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger ... or paraplegic" and it made him laugh every time. This title made me think of him, I automatically appended "or paraplegic" to the title. RIP M.

I used to say something similar until I read an even better version:

"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger."

"I hope a bus tries to make you stronger."

(source: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/09/how_does_the_shutdown...)

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