Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#41

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

Arainach wrote: post #32

shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

I'm a bicycle commuter in London, formerly Minneapolis, Santa Fe and Sunnyvale—Palo Alto corridor.

I agree that running red lights is bad in the general case, however I do have some exceptions. In certain circumstances waiting for the light to turn is leaving me in a vulnerable position, or a place where I'm going to block traffic and piss off a lot of drivers. In these cases sometimes I dismount and walk, sometimes I ride out slowly as a pedestrian (London intersections tend to be 3-phase with the walk cycle being all directions, also there are no turns-on-red).

This makes some people angry who want to stick their head in the sand and pretend a bicycle is the same as a motor vehicle. The problem is that it's not. If you are a fast rider in a dense urban area such as London you can at times approximate being a vehicle, but slow riders or fast uncongested roads you can't.

For me it's all about safety and courtesy. I am courteous to pedestrians and I am courteous to motor vehicle traffic. For instance, I move over to let cars pass and I don't take any more space than is necessary to be safe. If a car is stuck behind me I try to go as fast I can until it's safe to make room for them to pass. Similarly if I'm stuck in an unsafe position I may do a technical illegal maneuver to get out of it. This pisses some people off sometimes, usually drivers who have never pedaled in an urban environment ever, but you know what? It's my ass out there on the line and being at times a driver, a cyclist and a pedestrian in equal shares, I have a better idea what is safe and considerate than most.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#42

Post by adharmad » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

Errors by cyclists and pedestrians can cause vehicle accidents because mostly drivers expect cyclists and pedestrians to follow traffic rules and adhere to common safety guidelines.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#43

Post by genericuser » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

shittyanalogy wrote: post #39

Arainach wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

Every OTHER form of transportation... Certainly does not stop at every red light. Specifically pedestrians. Bikes are more maneuverable and faster than pedestrians while decreasing safety only by the slightest margin if even any. I honestly don't see the problem. Also I think it's important to note that there is no term for "safely crossing an intersection even though the light is red." That and blowing through indis…

As someone that has had to come to some pretty abrupt stops because bikes darted out into intersections from behind cars while they had a red light and I had a green turn arrow. I disagree. I am in Boston not NYC but there is one intersection I go through in my daily commute where this happens at least once a month, and the first couple times it happened was nearly bad.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#44

Post by jff » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

I wish all police everywhere started ticketing for more traffic violations. When everyone on the road--cyclist, motorist, and pedestrian--follows the rules precisely, traffic is predictable and safe. When morons wave you through at a 4-way stop, or turn without signaling (yay California), or blow red lights on their bicycle, you have to go into extra-defensive mode because the road is no longer predictable.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#45

Post by k-mcgrady » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:27 PM UTC

jasonjei wrote: post #37

As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light? Will they weave in and out of traffic unsafely (this is an acceptable practice, when done with ample buffer given their size and speed)? I think cycling is great (I'…

>> "As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light?"

I feel the same as a pedestrian. I can't count the number of times I've had to jump out of the way of a cyclist running a red light. Predictability is important for everyone on the road so following the same rules as other vehicles on the road makes sense.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#46

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:28 PM UTC

Arainach wrote: post #32

shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

The difference, in my city, anyway, is that lights are timed for cars and not bicycles. A light pattern that usually stops a car twice might stop a cyclist three or four times. A cyclists' lower speed and presence in the open air means that they react to the environment much more quickly. It's nearly impossible for a cyclist to fail to notice cross traffic when approaching an intersection whereas it's difficult for an auto. So, a series of lights that minimally inconveniences a car, and reduces the chance of a crash, inconveniences a cyclist more and hardly reduces the chance of a crash (it may increase the chance since hindrances to cycling reduce cycling rates, which puts people in cars, which are more dangerous per mile.)

Because of all this, the "Idaho Stop" is a recognized, lawful traffic behavior for cyclists in many jurisdictions. It lets them treat stop signs as yields and red lights as stop signs.

Someone claiming to be a safe cyclist who runs red lights may present poorly to people who only drive, or who imagine a cyclist speeding through a red light at 20+ MPH, but it's not an oxymoron and it should be understood by someone who is familiar with cycling.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#47

Post by mikeash » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:28 PM UTC

Arainach wrote: post #32

shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

There are cases where it's safe to run a red light. Some lights rely on sensors and simply will not change in any reasonable time if there's no traffic. In that case, I'll stop, ensure there's no traffic, then proceed through the red light.

I doubt this applies in NYC, though. If you're proceeding through a red light just to save 60 seconds waiting for the light, you're doing it wrong.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#48

Post by smackfu » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

shittyanalogy wrote: post #39

Arainach wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

Every OTHER form of transportation... Certainly does not stop at every red light. Specifically pedestrians. Bikes are more maneuverable and faster than pedestrians while decreasing safety only by the slightest margin if even any. I honestly don't see the problem. Also I think it's important to note that there is no term for "safely crossing an intersection even though the light is red." That and blowing through indis…

How about a car example: If there is a four-way stop, and a car runs a stop sign because they can see there is no one else waiting, should they be ticketed?

This is a case where if something is done relatively infrequently, it is quite safe. But once it becomes common, it is very unsafe. A lot of other traffic laws are the same.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#49

Post by avn2109 » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #31

tedunangst wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Stop turning a blind eye" doesn't require that many new resources to enforce. The only opportunity cost is the time it takes the officer to write the ticket, which isn't much.

NYPD says they don't even have the resources to investigate fatal car crashes. They didn't bother investigating the death of a three year old girl in a crosswalk this year. The driver didn't even get so much as a ticket. If there's some cop standing around with nothing to do I'm sure they could be assigned to look into the fifty pedestrian injury collisions that happen every day in New York.

>> "If there's some cop standing around with nothing to do..."

Honestly, I have (almost) only ever seen NYPD officers standing around with nothing to do. I don't know if that's because they are drastically overmanned or because they intentionally deploy loafing cops for the deterrent effect.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#50

Post by wanderingstan » Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

thenmar wrote: post #4

gohrt wrote: post #2

It's not a mathematical error when the number is completely fabricated to justify a policy change. That's just lying.

It's not really a policy change though is it? Aren't they enforcing laws that cyclists previously were breaking with impunity? I would like them to show their work too, but I don't really see the policy conspiracy angle to this.

Most auto drivers, myself included, regularly (and with impunity) break the law against driving over the speed limit. If police announced they intend to start ticketing people for even 1-9mpg speeding violations, we would all agree this was a massive "policy change."

(Note that I'm not saying that these law breaking activities are equivalent; only that there are a multitude of laws that are not enforced, and a change in enforcement is indeed a policy change.)