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When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

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Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#41

Post by rsynnott »

mathattack wrote: post #40
rsynnott wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforcement of the Working Time Directive varies a lot within Europe, but in many countries it is quite strictly enforced for most roles (at least for companies of more than a certain size).

I previously worked for a private French firm with ~700 Paris based employees. They worked very long hours, even by US standards. I thought, "If it can't be mandated here, it can't be mandated anywhere."

Hmm, that's quite surprising; in Ireland, at least for large companies, it is generally enforced fairly well (though there's an ongoing problem with the hospitals; it turns out there aren't really enough doctors if you can't make them do overtime), and France is generally stricter about this stuff than us. Were these normal employees or some sort of weird contractor arrangement?

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#42

Post by fapjacks »

s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

My ancestors are Swiss, and I have seriously considered moving back. :)

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#43

Post by grecy »

seanstickle wrote: post #38

I favor something more like a Results-Only Work Environment ( http://gorowe.com/pages/rowe-standards ), where the focus is on the results and not on how many hours are worked. Too many companies (even startups) are conservatives and traditionalists in the sense of thinking that work needs to be done within certain hours and at a certain place, even when those are not drivers of the results. I'm hired to deliver certa…

I agree with you personally, but to play the devil's advocate a little:

>If it takes me 10 hours or 40 hours to deliver those results, that's up to me, as long as the deadlines are hit and the deliverables are high-quality.

If you are able to consistently deliver the required results in only 10 hours of "work", it's clear that any organization will slowly ramp up the required results more and more until you are working 40 hours a week.

How would you agree on results that are "enough for the company" that won't grow endlessly when they see you're only working 10 hours a week?

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#44

Post by seanstickle »

grecy wrote: post #43
seanstickle wrote: post #38

I favor something more like a Results-Only Work Environment ( http://gorowe.com/pages/rowe-standards ), where the focus is on the results and not on how many hours are worked. Too many companies (even startups) are conservatives and traditionalists in the sense of thinking that work needs to be done within certain hours and at a certain place, even when those are not drivers of the results. I'm hired to deliver certa…

I agree with you personally, but to play the devil's advocate a little: > If it takes me 10 hours or 40 hours to deliver those results, that's up to me, as long as the deadlines are hit and the deliverables are high-quality. If you are able to consistently deliver the required results in only 10 hours of "work", it's clear that any organization will slowly ramp up the required results more and more until you are work…

This is a cultural change that the company has to go through.

They're paying me for the results. Not for the hours.

Thinking that they'll "ramp up the required results more and more until you are working 40 hours a week" means that you're still thinking that you're paying for hours.

Still, it's the responsibility of all employees to improve the process that they work in, just as part of the company's continuous improvement. Which means that more/better results will be delivered over time anyways.

How do you agree on results that are "enough for the company" when you hire a consultant (assuming they're an intelligent consultant and don't charge by the hour).

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#45

Post by grecy »

fapjacks wrote: post #42
s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

My ancestors are Swiss, and I have seriously considered moving back. :)

At the very least, start the paperwork now to get your citizenship and passport. It only costs a few hundred dollars, and it's like having an ace up your sleeve.

You might never use it, but the beauty is it's there if you want it.

(I recently did ~18 months of paperwork to get my Polish citizenship and passport. I've never been to Europe, and really don't know if I ever will. But 10 years from now if I want to move there, I can)

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#46

Post by hobo_mark »

s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

Excuse me? I work in CH and I have never heard of that, in fact it's not unheard of to have urgent work to be done on a saturday or sunday 'for free'.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#47

Post by saraid216 »

seanstickle wrote: post #38

I favor something more like a Results-Only Work Environment ( http://gorowe.com/pages/rowe-standards ), where the focus is on the results and not on how many hours are worked. Too many companies (even startups) are conservatives and traditionalists in the sense of thinking that work needs to be done within certain hours and at a certain place, even when those are not drivers of the results. I'm hired to deliver certa…

I would also point out Richard D. Wolff's arguments about forming cooperatives instead of corporations.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#48

Post by hawkice »

I think a helpful lens is to generally worry about what you are funging against. Time, as a fungible resource, can be allocated to work (generally done in fixed portions), and the remainder to other activities. In America (I have no knowledge specific to Korea), a large percentage of those other activities is "watch television". People self-assess as less happy watching television than they do while working. So giving out more time may increase access to things that make people happy (spending time with loved ones) but also increase time spent on things that make them unhappy. Obviously this is only part of the story, but looking at replacement activities would be a great next step.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#49

Post by rasur »

s3nnyy wrote: post #37
_dark_matter_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about jumping to conclusions. This is both a gross misunderstanding of their culture and government, as well as unsubstantiated claims of causation.

I am not sure, if I can confirm this, but I find this really amusing: "If Hewlett and Packard tried running an electronics company out of their garage in Switzerland, the old lady next door would report them to the municipal authorities." http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html (I guess, PG visited Switzerland, while he was an exchange student in Italy.)

Or out of their Tiefgarage - can you imagine the fun ;)

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#50

Post by saraid216 »

s3nnyy wrote: post #31
dirktheman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here at the number 4 on the list... I work 4 days a week, my wife works 3. My employer also works 4. My day off is awesome, and accounts for a lot of my happiness. And the happiness of my kids, I'm sure! US may be the leading in economy, but we (Northern and Western Europe) are way ahead of you guys when it comes to a healthy work-life balance...

Maybe also that is why big things come from the US? True pain-points are more obvious in a place where one is not pampered and protected by society too much?

The logic of this falls apart the moment you take it literally:

I have a baseball bat. I can make you bleed innovation.

And when you can't take it literally, you're missing something significant in the claim.

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