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Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

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Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#41

Post by optimusclimb »

baddox wrote: post #28
optimusclimb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and yo…

You seem to be confusing the NSA with any agency that does any intelligence gathering or any military action of any sort. Yes, "NSA" stands for "National Security Agency," but that doesn't mean that other agencies can't perform legitimate actions for national security.

I see what you're saying. I think the three letter acronym doesn't matter so much (i.e. whether it's the NSA, CIA, or some other org) that carries out the mission - but I think given the sophistication of communications and technology these days - we'd be foolish not to have such an organization. To me the problem is that that particular org has shifted a lot of its resources and abilities to domestic surveillance - and what the article in question is discussing is just Utah symbolically objecting to it.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#42

Post by vidarh »

optimusclimb wrote: post #25
thizzbuzz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced that the NSA has any purpose. What do you think is necessary about the NSA?

Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and yo…

> The rest of the world speaks other languages. If a newspaper in a neighboring country starts publishing articles calling for an invasion of your country, in a language most of your inhabitants don't speak...isn't that something you'd like to be aware of?

You do realise that you have a diplomatic corps with feet on the ground and people who speak the native languages in a substantial percentage of countries, right? And that e.g. CIA have analyst desks for handling exactly this type of thing?

What makes you think the NSA is needed for that? And even if they were, it'd be something like %0.001 of their resources that'd be needed for that.

The NSA's primary mission is sigint targeting non-public sources, as the CIA and DIA and other agencies are under substantial restrictions in terms of what sigint they are allowed to engage in without going through the NSA.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#43

Post by vidarh »

optimusclimb wrote: post #41
baddox wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be confusing the NSA with any agency that does any intelligence gathering or any military action of any sort. Yes, "NSA" stands for "National Security Agency," but that doesn't mean that other agencies can't perform legitimate actions for national security.

I see what you're saying. I think the three letter acronym doesn't matter so much (i.e. whether it's the NSA, CIA, or some other org) that carries out the mission - but I think given the sophistication of communications and technology these days - we'd be foolish not to have such an organization. To me the problem is that that particular org has shifted a lot of its resources and abilities to domestic surveillance -…

It matters in the the NSA is the only agency authorised to carry out widespread signals intelligence, and the only one with the resources to do so at anything approaching that scale.

> is discussing is just Utah symbolically objecting to it.

It may just be symbolic, but sometimes symbols are important. If nothing else, if more and more parts of US society brands the NSA as un-American pariahs, it may make more insiders think twice about what they're doing (and about whistleblowing), may make it harder for Congress to keep supporting it, and may make their recruitment more difficult.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#44

Post by interesting_guy »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #5
prbuckley wrote: post #3

If every state stood up and passed bills like this the NSA couldnt have giant data centers in this country.

As shocking as it might be, the NSA has other things to do which actually are crucial for national security. Reforming the agency will go much further than basically saying "you can't have cool servers or toilets that flush." I know hating the NSA is en vogue but seriously. This is almost as bad as stonewalling and other hostilities toward other branches of government simply because the opposite party is in power (th…

All of what you said I reject except for the last paragraph.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#45

Post by cmdkeen »

twombly wrote: post #26
optimusclimb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and yo…

Part of the reason people would even want to send a boat full of troops is because of the way our military interacts with the rest of the world. It's an unfortunate situation to be in but that doesn't mean it needs to continue forever. If we would just scale back the size of our military presence it would definitely be safer for everyone.

Safer for who? Probably not for Europe, certainly Eastern Europe who see what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Probably not for Japan and South Korea, both of whom rely on US military backing against undemocratic opponents who have designs on their territory.

US military strength underpins the current Western democratic system, which keeps the US wealthy through trade and commerce.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#46

Post by halviti »

GordonS wrote: post #2

It's a nice thought, but it'll never happen. It'll be a 'matter of national security', supporters will be branded 'terrorists' or other such nonsense.

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

-Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg trials

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#47

Post by vidarh »

optimusclimb wrote: post #32
optimusclimb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and yo…

Since HN is not transparent about downvoting, other than that only certain users have the ability - I'd love the feedback on the reasons for the down votes. How a country could exist without an organization that pays attention to what the rest of the world is up to towards the goal of keeping itself "secure" is beyond me. What I wrote was a fictional circumstance which I thought explained to others how you'd arrive a…

You're changing the subject.

No other country has intelligence services with even a fraction of the reach of the NSA, so clearly countries can exist without an NSA class agency.

Whether a country could exist without an organization that pays attention to what the rest of the world is up to is another matter. It's a role served by diplomatic services, and where even the most low tech intelligence agency can provide substantial additional abilities without stepping all over civil liberties. I don't see anyone questioning the need for a diplomatic corps, foreign service, or even basic human intelligence agencies, or for that matter basic sigint.

But it's an entirely different issue than whether an agency like the NSA is needed - or warranted.

Arguably, while the NSA may thwart some threats, it is also part of maintaining the image of the US as the big bully of the world, and as a result it is part of creating the type of threats it is meant to protect you against. It's self-reinforcing.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#48

Post by vidarh »

venomsnake wrote: post #40
kristopolous wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let them control the narrative. The discourse they have is absurd. Their system not only doesn't work but creates haystacks so big that needles get deeply hidden and no real intelligence happens. The rationale for the spy-everyone story is such an implausible fantasy. We have to stop letting people get away with saying it without being challenged. This needs to stop.

It is even worse. The amount of data NSA stores makes them an even juicer target for infiltration, subversion and otherwise gaining access to data they have collected.

Exactly. If I was in charge of Chinese or Russian intelligence, I'd have whole buildings full of people dedicated to how to tap the Bluffdale data centre: It'd be fantastic - get all the data without the political risk of trying to gather it yourself and possibly the ability to alter data at will.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#49

Post by vidarh »

cmdkeen wrote: post #45
twombly wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason people would even want to send a boat full of troops is because of the way our military interacts with the rest of the world. It's an unfortunate situation to be in but that doesn't mean it needs to continue forever. If we would just scale back the size of our military presence it would definitely be safer for everyone.

Safer for who? Probably not for Europe, certainly Eastern Europe who see what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Probably not for Japan and South Korea, both of whom rely on US military backing against undemocratic opponents who have designs on their territory. US military strength underpins the current Western democratic system, which keeps the US wealthy through trade and commerce.

Given what Putin is doing in Ukraine, and given how the US and Europe appeared to be totally unprepared, it doesn't seem like the NSA is really benefiting Europe enough for it to be a viable for the necessity of the NSA.
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