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Global Slavery Index 2014

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Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#41

Post by vacri »

nickff wrote: post #37
nyolfen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i form my views on material reality, not nebulous hypotheticals

I have used no nebulous hypothetical, only cited a noted philosopher, given the example of a real system of taxation, and pointed out your failure to address my argument. And I should point out that I am part of material reality, unless my existence is a hypothetical construct (which may very well be true).

I would call equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an experience 'not significantly different' to a slave as 'nebulously hypothetical'. Paying a bit of income tax and sales tax while holding the ability to move around, go off the grid, retire, or emigrate (amongst a vast range of options) is not even remotely similar to being lured to another country with lies, having your passport confiscated, and being forced into prostitution and having your every waking movement dictated.

The extent to which libertarians demand to be painted as hapless victims is incredibly frustrating.

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#42

Post by nickff »

vacri wrote: post #41
nickff wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used no nebulous hypothetical, only cited a noted philosopher, given the example of a real system of taxation, and pointed out your failure to address my argument. And I should point out that I am part of material reality, unless my existence is a hypothetical construct (which may very well be true).

I would call equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an experience 'not significantly different' to a slave as 'nebulously hypothetical'. Paying a bit of income tax and sales tax while holding the ability to move around, go off the grid, retire, or emigrate (amongst a vast range of options) is not even remotely similar to being lured to another country with lies, having you…

Well, I would both dispute your characterization of what I said, and its nebulousness. I said:

>"If one takes the trouble to define a modern tax system, you will see that there is no significant difference between it and the exactions imposed on a slave."

Which is not hypothetical at all, and is significantly different from:

>"equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an experience 'not significantly different' to a slave"

I was brought into my home country as a helpless child of zero years of age (when I was born,) as are many people, and this system of laws and taxes was imposed on me at that time. I never had any input or decision-making power; please explain how I was in control (, which I presume to be the opposite of being a 'hapless victim').

I should add that I find your obsession with collectivism, and your belief in the moral authority of the state to be "incredibly frustrating", as do most people who agree with me, so at least we all have something in common.

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#43

Post by vacri »

nickff wrote: post #42
vacri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an experience 'not significantly different' to a slave as 'nebulously hypothetical'. Paying a bit of income tax and sales tax while holding the ability to move around, go off the grid, retire, or emigrate (amongst a vast range of options) is not even remotely similar to being lured to another country with lies, having you…

Well, I would both dispute your characterization of what I said, and its nebulousness. I said: > "If one takes the trouble to define a modern tax system, you will see that there is no significant difference between it and the exactions imposed on a slave." Which is not hypothetical at all, and is significantly different from: > "equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an ex…

please explain how I was in control

You're asking me to explain why you weren't in control as an infant? Can you explain to me how you were oppressed by taxes as an infant? You're trying to play the victim so explain yourself: where is this indentured infant servitude you're claiming you suffered under?

You're saying that the tax system has no significant difference between it and "the exactions imposed on a slave", which is basically saying that the experience is the same. It beggars belief that anyone that understands the experience of an actual slave would make this comparison; basically you're playing academic parlour tricks with the definitions of words.

your belief in the moral authority of the state

Where did I say that? I said taxation wasn't slavery. I said nothing about state moral authority (which state anyway? which kind of state? It's a silly, simplistic statement, as if there's only one kind of state). If you're going to complain about being misinterpreted, don't use a hydraulic ram to put words in other people's mouths.

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#44

Post by WildUtah »

mseebach wrote: post #21

The Economist had a pretty scathing tear-down of indicies in the issue week before last. One article specifically criticises the Global Slavery Index, another is more satirical, but still well worth a read: http://www.economist.com/news/international/21631039-interna... http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21631025-learn-ruses-i...

I'm disappointed that the USA didn't get credit for the vast world historical illegal/undocumented immigration levels the government has been inviting for decades. Millions work for less than survival wages with no legal rights and the government does nothing to discourage migration or employers.

Simple employer sanctions have proven effective in ending this kind of migration but US gov't imposes almost none.

Heck, even legal professional immigrants (H/L visas) don't have the right to change employers or resign.

If we had credit for all those millions, we'd be at the top of the league table here. Time for a recount. (We're number one.)

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#46

Post by cozzyd »

nickff wrote: post #42
vacri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an experience 'not significantly different' to a slave as 'nebulously hypothetical'. Paying a bit of income tax and sales tax while holding the ability to move around, go off the grid, retire, or emigrate (amongst a vast range of options) is not even remotely similar to being lured to another country with lies, having you…

Well, I would both dispute your characterization of what I said, and its nebulousness. I said: > "If one takes the trouble to define a modern tax system, you will see that there is no significant difference between it and the exactions imposed on a slave." Which is not hypothetical at all, and is significantly different from: > "equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an ex…

I don't have any first hand experience, but I suspect someone who had actually been a slave would find your "slavery" extremely offensive.

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#47

Post by nickff »

vacri wrote: post #43
nickff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I would both dispute your characterization of what I said, and its nebulousness. I said: > "If one takes the trouble to define a modern tax system, you will see that there is no significant difference between it and the exactions imposed on a slave." Which is not hypothetical at all, and is significantly different from: > "equating anyone who pays tax (including powerful CEOs of major companies) as having an ex…

please explain how I was in control You're asking me to explain why you weren't in control as an infant? Can you explain to me how you were oppressed by taxes as an infant? You're trying to play the victim so explain yourself: where is this indentured infant servitude you're claiming you suffered under? You're saying that the tax system has no significant difference between it and "the exactions imposed on a slave",…

>"You're asking me to explain why you weren't in control as an infant? Can you explain to me how you were oppressed by taxes as an infant? You're trying to play the victim so explain yourself: where is this indentured infant servitude you're claiming you suffered under?"

I am subject to my current tax and legal regimes only because I happened to be born in a state which has them. This is what I mean by my lack of choice as an infant.

>"It beggars belief that anyone that understands the experience of an actual slave would make this comparison; basically you're playing academic parlour tricks with the definitions of words."

The moral problem with slavery is not the physical conditions in which slaves are kept (though these have often been horrifically bad); the problem is the lack of liberty of the slave, which is why coercion is the essence of slavery. In many instances throughout history, there have been slaves who lived in better physical conditions than the average person, yet this does not mean the masters are absolved of their guilt.

I never "use[d] a hydraulic ram to put words in [your] mouth[]"; the 'moral authority of the state' is a classic set of terms used to describe a state's authority to compel a citizen to do things the citizen does not believe in. I do not believe I should be forced to do many of the things the state compels me to do, and I do not believe any state has any inherent moral authority to compel me to. You, on the other hand believe some state should be able to compel me to do things I do not believe in, hence you believe in the 'moral authority of the state' (, which does not mean that you believe every state or state agency is moral).

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#48

Post by pdkl95 »

nickff wrote: post #35
pdkl95 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. we don't[1] have a debtor's prison in the USA and I believe most laws that criminalize a simple inability to pay would be unconstitutional by the 13 Amendment. Now, this is a very fine legal line to walk, because intent (mens rea) to withhold taxes is indeed a crime. Failing to file any required paperwork may also be a crime in some situations. IF by some chance you cannot pay, but still file on time and ex…

The parent said: > "if taxes are extracted through coercive means (as they are in most present-day states), then they can be viewed as coercing individuals into a choice between either wage slavery or poverty." You never actually addressed the issue of coercion as a whole, you only addressed what happens when there is an 'inability to pay'; as you state: > "So you can certainly get some sort of payment plan, or wage…

> under threat of confinement

In the area of taxes, nobody is making such a threat.

As I said above, "confinement" (jail) is the one thing that that would be the one thing that can't happen for only inability to pay.

> hides the money

See, that's not what I'm talking about. By attempting to hide what would otherwise be taxable money, you are committing a different crime, which is really a type of fraud (or possibly, if a court was involved, perjury).

After facing whatever penalty there is for fraudulently filling out tax forms[1], someone who evades taxes (any way) would still owe the outstanding back taxes.... which cannot result in further jail time.

So yes, the government will make your financial life hard if you fail to pay taxes. They can (and do) coerce your property very harshly. The government should only start using coercive force against you (instead of just your property) if there are other related crimes involved.

{ For the record: this is not legal advice, see a lawyer for better information. Especially see a lawyer before attempting some sort of scheme to move money around in the hopes of hiding taxes. That is getting harder and harder to pull off in the modern "big data" world and and clever analysis techniques[2] }

[1] note: lack of filling them out still counts, as the IRS simply files a substitute tax return in your place. Obviously, they will not be filling it out in your favor. Their minimal filing doesn't even include the "standard deduction". So

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law#Accounting_frau...

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#49

Post by zenogais »

pdkl95 wrote: post #48
nickff wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent said: > "if taxes are extracted through coercive means (as they are in most present-day states), then they can be viewed as coercing individuals into a choice between either wage slavery or poverty." You never actually addressed the issue of coercion as a whole, you only addressed what happens when there is an 'inability to pay'; as you state: > "So you can certainly get some sort of payment plan, or wage…

> under threat of confinement In the area of taxes, nobody is making such a threat. As I said above, "confinement" (jail) is the one thing that that would be the one thing that can't happen for only inability to pay. > hides the money See, that's not what I'm talking about. By attempting to hide what would otherwise be taxable money, you are committing a different crime, which is really a type of fraud (or possibly,…

My apologies for not being clearer, but then again this honestly this strikes me as overly pedantic. By coercion I meant coercion in the broadest sense as anything designed to influence your behavior - eg induce pain or potential hardship so that paying taxes seems more desirable than not paying them. Therefore, while the legal classifications of the particular offenses may vary and be debatated ad nauseum, I don't think they detract from the fundamentally coercive, or even at least perceived coercive, reality underlying them.

Re: Global Slavery Index 2014

#50

Post by WiggleYourIndex »

WiggleYourIndex wrote: post #6

The abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass initially declared, "now I am my own master", upon taking a paying job. But later in life, he concluded to the contrary, "experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

And here's one more part of this: a great letter by a Southern pro-slavery philosopher, about 1830's, was written to a capitalist abolitionist Northern philosopher. And the pro-slavery owner said,

Look, we would be very happy to give up all our slaves if we had the same conditions you have up there. Because slave ownership is only the optimal economic choice under very specific land-ownership conditions.If you have not very many people on a lot of land, the only way you can get them to work for you is at the point of a gun. Because access to land means self-sufficiency. If, on the other hand, you have a lot of people, and you've got land title all tied up, they have no choice but to work for you for whatever pittance. So, frankly, I'd rather have it like you do, because you don't have to pay for them when they get sick. You don't have to pay for their food when they're infants. You don't have to pay for them in their old age. So, frankly, you can offer them whatever pittance you want, and if they don't take it, you'll hire somebody else.

It made a lot of sense to me. Access to land is everything.

And, by the way, land ownership doesn't exist. I don't own this land here. What actually happens is, my mom owns a piece of paper that we all agree means that she owns this land. But she doesn't own any land, Warehauser doesn't any land. Sierra Pacific doesn't own any land, the US government doesn't own any land. They have pieces of paper that we all agree mean that they own the land. But what there is, is there's land, and there's starving people, and there's people who are paying money to live on land that other people have pieces of paper that say that they own, but it's all a shared hallucination.

http://www.davidsheen.com/firstearth/interviews/jensen.htm

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