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Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

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Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#41
post #11

Try listing Kahn Academy or free open online classes/certificates on a resume. The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career. Before graduating I had 0 calls backs, after I started listing a completed degree I had many many call backs. College may be a poor choice for some, but if you dont want to get stuck waiting tables or making coffee then its a sure bet with t…

I think it depends on the job. Believe it or not, there are a lot of small and medium sized businesses that prefer this over someone coming out of a university with an actual degree. You are self-motivated, curious, and would come with a cheaper price tag since you don't have a degree. You'd also be less likely to quit for greener pastures.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#42
post #11

Try listing Kahn Academy or free open online classes/certificates on a resume. The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career. Before graduating I had 0 calls backs, after I started listing a completed degree I had many many call backs. College may be a poor choice for some, but if you dont want to get stuck waiting tables or making coffee then its a sure bet with t…

I think you're probably right from the perspective of a prospective employee. That being said, having these sorts of discussion may sway employers to have a more open mind to non-traditional ways to become qualified for employment. And if that starts to happen, a B.S. or B.A. will stop being a litmus test and start being one path towards qualification for a job or a career. This is actually a serious problem. If chan…

We need to develop a hybrid program where you can get job experience and education at the same time. Or adult transitional courses. Many people at my work get laid off and only have skills that pertain to the job that they lost.

For instance if long haul truckers become obsolete. Could we retrain those people to maintain the self driving trucks or perhaps trouble shoot problems?

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#43
post #17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that most people take more than 4 years to graduate, especially at lower tier colleges.

Yeah, but the lower tier colleges are unlikely to attract the sort of student this article talks about. the people who have trouble completing their degree in time generally either fail classes or were underprepared for college. They are not the subject of this article. College is a poor proposition for students at the lower tier colleges as well, but for different reasons.

I'm five years into college (working at a startup for now to motivate myself to finish). I have no difficulty whatsoever with the material, it's just an absolute waste of time to show up to class every day for years just to get a competency certificate for shit you can learn in a textbook. I'm gonna need that full six years just to get my self through all the bureaucratic bullshit.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#44
I did not go to college and I flunked 2nd and 3rd grade. My parents pulled me out of school and tried to teach me at home which had better success than the school system but not much. I dropped out of school at 15 and started working in kitchens washing dishes. A friend of mine worked in an IT department and he started teaching me computer network, hardware and things like that, because I kept asking him to. I fell in love with IT and taught myself over a dozen programming languages and have not had issues with finding a job. Sure I can't spell well, english sentence structure and all that is something I still can't figure out, but I don't let it hold me back. I am in the top 2% of income earners in the U.S. and for my age bracket better than that, I report to the CTO and have had a successful career so far.

My view is you need to find your gift in life and go with it. If it's your dream then you will have the fire and motivation that others will want, if you try to live someone else's dream you will be a miserable person and never at the top of your game or income potential.

The real issue is not college or not college, if you need college to live your dream then do it. Don't expect a college degree on it's own will bring you success and happiness.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#45
I fundamentally agree, but there are a few angles it omits:

- Knowing what to learn. Being interested in something is great, but it usually means you learn a lot about a rather narrow field, rather than being exposed to the breadth of things. A college with its variety of courses and its availability of professors that have spent their entire life on a subject might help to provide a good overview as a preliminary step.

- Humane disciplines What the article describes is very much applicable to technology and science subjects, but less so if you’re going for an arts degree. There the academy plays a way more integral role and a lot of research happens for the sake of being published in scientific / academic publications.

- Academic prestige / salary. This is probably more in favour of the article. Following up on the previous comment the role of the academy is very different in different fields of study. In liberal arts the academy is the central part of the system and a lot of people working in the field are researchers or otherwise contributing to it. Thus the prestige of teaching at the academy is high – and so is a professors salary when compared to what a lot of the other people in the field make. In technology however this is very different. There’s a lot of money to be made in the field and the most prestigious places to work at are intelligent startups or ground breaking companies like Google. Being a professor in the same field yields comparatively lower rewards and – pardon the generalisation – comes with lesser prestige. Especially since even in classically academic fields like research and innovation the tech companies have long ago taken the lead.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#46
post #11

Try listing Kahn Academy or free open online classes/certificates on a resume. The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career. Before graduating I had 0 calls backs, after I started listing a completed degree I had many many call backs. College may be a poor choice for some, but if you dont want to get stuck waiting tables or making coffee then its a sure bet with t…

The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career.

I think you are correct that many employers use college degrees as an implicit hiring filter. Interestingly, the same United States Supreme Court case, Griggs v. Duke Power Co., 401 U.S. 424 (1971), that declared most uses of IQ tests as hiring screens illegal also declared most educational credential hiring screens illegal.[1] But the headline report about the case holding was the part about IQ tests, so a lot of employers and even lawyers don't know that it can be legally dodgy to require an educational credential as a hiring criterion.

The better way to hire is to give applicants a work-sample test. I have a FAQ about that[2] that is one of my best-liked comments on Hacker News, and I encourage you to give that a look and to let me know how I can make that FAQ more useful for job-seekers who have skills but who may not have a degree.

[1] http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1970/1970_124

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6583580#up_6584957

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#47
post #11

Try listing Kahn Academy or free open online classes/certificates on a resume. The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career. Before graduating I had 0 calls backs, after I started listing a completed degree I had many many call backs. College may be a poor choice for some, but if you dont want to get stuck waiting tables or making coffee then its a sure bet with t…

I think you're probably right from the perspective of a prospective employee. That being said, having these sorts of discussion may sway employers to have a more open mind to non-traditional ways to become qualified for employment. And if that starts to happen, a B.S. or B.A. will stop being a litmus test and start being one path towards qualification for a job or a career. This is actually a serious problem. If chan…

"we need to be able to retrain people without demanding four years of full-time education and massive student loans."

The destruction of the middle class is a different, although related, issue and note that its always downward class migration not upward. Very few lower class jobs require a degree, so no need for schooling when the jobs go away and the former employees permanently class migrate downward. A more realistic life skill would be learning how to be happy "making coffee" than getting a degree for a job that doesn't exist and never will again.

Cultural engineering to convince people that you're more than your job, or that you should work to live instead of live to work, will eliminate more revolutionary strife than any drone or spy program.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#48
Somewhat of an aside, but:

If you're a self-directed learner passionate about a subject nothing about a classroom holds you back. [1] It sets a minimum pace for acquiring new information, it sets a minimum domain of concepts and to some degree it will influence the order of the first few concepts you'll have to tackle, if you concede to only tackle the subject when the class begins.

I'm endlessly bemused by the repeated assertions of self-identified "passionate", "self-directed" learners that an organized class is some sort of jail cell from which their (self-identified) considerable curiosity and talents cannot break free.

If you are actually passionate, if you are actually self-directed, it may put a crimp in your process for about a week or two until you're so far ahead of the syllabus that keeping up with the topics as-covered in class is no more an obstacle than setting your learning aside to cook or do laundry.

Sure, it can still be an annoying distraction. But it's not a particularly notable one. It's certainly not a pen or a leash.

[1] Slower learners can certainly be harmed by classroom schedules. But one would expect the self-directed and passionate ones would have recognized their predicament long before they entered college and thus realized they need to tackle subjects before they sign up for credit-hours.

Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#49
post #11

Try listing Kahn Academy or free open online classes/certificates on a resume. The only reason I went to college was so I could be taken seriously and offered a job in my career. Before graduating I had 0 calls backs, after I started listing a completed degree I had many many call backs. College may be a poor choice for some, but if you dont want to get stuck waiting tables or making coffee then its a sure bet with t…

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Re: Why College Is a Poor Choice for a Lot of People

#50
post #26
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few people, % wise, finish in under 4 years. The average is much closer to 6 years ( http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2013/aug/11/r... ). You may be in a bubble of extreme high achievers that makes it hard to see the reality of most people. And that's data from all tiers combined, not just low tier schools (does that mean non-ivy?).

But the article is about people who are high achievers.

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