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China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#41

Post by mpyne »

mike_hearn wrote: post #16

Still, “it’s perfectly appropriate for us to do everything we can to embarrass and punish the Chinese if they’re in our systems, whether or not we’re in theirs,” said former National Security Agency general counsel Stewart A. Baker. “It’s the case that the U.S. and Russia and other countries are much more cautious about getting caught because they think there are going to be consequences. It’s only the Chinese that t…

The PRC doesn't feel embarrassment about this, but not because of anything the US is or isn't doing. The way they see it, espionage is a fair method of catching up to (and then exceeding) the US, and if it keeps working then maybe the US should actually do something about it. After all, it's not like the Chinese ever voted for strong "intellectual property" protection, they see it as a rule imposed on them by the rest of the world instead of some universal behavioral norm.

The US complaining about their hacking just proves to them how effective it is.

Now, the US engages in strategic espionage for different reasons (just as China actually engages in strategic espionage, which the US doesn't complain about in public). But US representatives should be embarrassed here just because their whining proves the point to the PRC.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#42

Post by xorcist »

diminoten wrote: post #38
drderidder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact their pals at CSEC were found to be doing exactly that. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/brazil-spying-repo...

Which private US company received this information in an attempt to boost that company's economic power? I can't find that information in the article.

There are several mentions of this in the Snowden papers. I think the most well known is Boeing, in their dealings against Airbus.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#43

Post by diminoten »

xorcist wrote: post #42
diminoten wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which private US company received this information in an attempt to boost that company's economic power? I can't find that information in the article.

There are several mentions of this in the Snowden papers. I think the most well known is Boeing, in their dealings against Airbus.

That's not in the Snowden papers, and the actual source for that is highly suspect.

I forget the name of that project, but the Wikipedia page's reference are all terrible. Not a single one stands up to scrutiny.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#44

Post by smilekzs »

hackuser wrote: post #31
jamesli wrote: post #18

It was USSR before. It has been China since 1990's. An imaginary and powerful enemy has to be created. Iraq, Iran, Afganistan are too small for the title.

> It was USSR before. It has been China since 1990's. An imaginary and powerful enemy has to be created. I agree that espionage is over-emphasized -- everyone does it. Also I agree that some like to imagine enemies; it fits their narratives. That doesn't make every enemy imaginary. The USSR was a real enemy. Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us; among t…

> Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us

[who?] [citation needed]

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#45

Post by mjklin »

mpyne wrote: post #41
mike_hearn wrote: post #16

Still, “it’s perfectly appropriate for us to do everything we can to embarrass and punish the Chinese if they’re in our systems, whether or not we’re in theirs,” said former National Security Agency general counsel Stewart A. Baker. “It’s the case that the U.S. and Russia and other countries are much more cautious about getting caught because they think there are going to be consequences. It’s only the Chinese that t…

The PRC doesn't feel embarrassment about this, but not because of anything the US is or isn't doing. The way they see it, espionage is a fair method of catching up to (and then exceeding) the US, and if it keeps working then maybe the US should actually do something about it. After all, it's not like the Chinese ever voted for strong "intellectual property" protection, they see it as a rule imposed on them by the res…

> Chinese

> voted

Might be the first time I've ever seen those two words together in a sentence.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#46

Post by mpyne »

mjklin wrote: post #45
mpyne wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PRC doesn't feel embarrassment about this, but not because of anything the US is or isn't doing. The way they see it, espionage is a fair method of catching up to (and then exceeding) the US, and if it keeps working then maybe the US should actually do something about it. After all, it's not like the Chinese ever voted for strong "intellectual property" protection, they see it as a rule imposed on them by the res…

> Chinese > voted Might be the first time I've ever seen those two words together in a sentence.

You should pay attention to the UN more then, even if they do usually abstain from voting.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#47

Post by hackuser »

smilekzs wrote: post #44
hackuser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was USSR before. It has been China since 1990's. An imaginary and powerful enemy has to be created. I agree that espionage is over-emphasized -- everyone does it. Also I agree that some like to imagine enemies; it fits their narratives. That doesn't make every enemy imaginary. The USSR was a real enemy. Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us; among t…

> Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us [who?] [citation needed]

Sorry that I'm not going to spend the time to look them up, but there are extreme nationalistic military officers who take this position. What I'm saying is not controversial in foreign policy literature, though perhaps the position is more often strongly implied than literally stated. Also, realize that the Chinese government seems to have less control over the statements of its military officers; I can't imagine U.S. officers making statements like these.

Try searching for 'kill a chicken to scare the monkeys'. A popular meme (at least popular enough that I've encountered it many times) is that China suffered a "century of humiliation" at the West's hands, that China is ascending and the U.S. is in decline, and now China will take what it wants as the great power of the world, including control of their region and territory from their neighbors (some of whom have security guarantees from the U.S.).

As far as actions, for example the Chinese military actively have harassed U.S. and allied nations' ships and planes, including causing a few serious collisions.

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#48

Post by jrochkind1 »

diminoten wrote: post #39
jrochkind1 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you sure of this? I wouldn't be. And you're saying it's somehow a different class of ethical conundrum to engage in espionage to kill people, or to engage in it for economic advantage, and killing people is more ethical? I am not surprised the state-capitalist Chinese see it differently, and are okay with both.

I'm about as sure of this as I am of unicorns not existing. As to the ethical dilemma, I'm only noting a difference.

Brazil is less sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

The NYT says it's a "fine line"

> But the government does not deny it routinely spies to advance American economic advantage, which is part of its broad definition of how it protects American national security. In short, the officials say, while the N.S.A. cannot spy on Airbus and give the results to Boeing, it is free to spy on European or Asian trade negotiators and use the results to help American trade officials — and, by extension, the American industries and workers they are trying to bolster.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/21/business/us-snooping-on-co...

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#49

Post by hackuser »

smilekzs wrote: post #44
hackuser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was USSR before. It has been China since 1990's. An imaginary and powerful enemy has to be created. I agree that espionage is over-emphasized -- everyone does it. Also I agree that some like to imagine enemies; it fits their narratives. That doesn't make every enemy imaginary. The USSR was a real enemy. Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us; among t…

> Many Chinese leaders openly proclaim themselves our enemy and they take aggressive actions against us [who?] [citation needed]

In today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/world/asia/china-turns-up-...

Re: China suspected of breaching U.S. Postal Service computer networks

#50

Post by diminoten »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #48
diminoten wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm about as sure of this as I am of unicorns not existing. As to the ethical dilemma, I'm only noting a difference.

Brazil is less sure. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz... The NYT says it's a "fine line" > But the government does not deny it routinely spies to advance American economic advantage, which is part of its broad definition of how it protects American national security. In short, the officials say, while the N.S.A. cannot spy on Airbus and give the results to Boeing, it is free to spy on Euro…

That's an editorial, so it's the view of one guy who works at the NYT, and not an all-that-well backed up view, to boot.

And I think fine lines are important lines.

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