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Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

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Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#41

Post by ctdonath »

baddox wrote: post #12
MCRed wrote: post #4

I believe that this law is in direct violation of the commerce clause[1]. The commerce clause was designed to prevent tarrifs from being placed on products from one state being sold in another state. They wanted to prevent inter-state trade wars. Being forced to go thru a dealer network that (theoretically) adds no value while extracting a cut of sales is a form of a tarrif (or at least, I think it is arguably one).…

This wouldn't be a violation of the commerce clause per se. The commerce clause just says that the federal government has the authority to regulate interstate commerce. In other words, the US legislature could pass a law prohibiting these restrictions on Tesla sales, and that law would be constitutional.

"Regulate interstate commerce" was sent to hallucinogenic new levels with the Supreme Court ruling in the Raich case. TL;DR - feds can "regulate" (via SWAT-type police raid) a terminally ill old lady's doctor-prescribed-and-monitored state-legal for-personal-use-only marijuana plants because her doing so decreased demand in an illegal interstate market.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#42

Post by ctdonath »

the_ancient wrote: post #36
_acme wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand that electricity is still needed to charge these cars, right, and that a lot of that energy comes from oil (or worse, coal).

Name one "oil" fired power plant? Coal yes, nat gas sure, hyrdo (which is where alot of MI power comes from) you bet yea but I have not seen a oil powered electric plant. further even is such a thing does exist, generating electricity has a much high efficiency then the IC engine which is by for one of the least efficient systems there is

If customer demand for electricity grows high enough, there's no reason oil-fired electrical plants won't arise on a large scale. Efficiency issues can be addressed much better when implemented on a scale much larger than a car engine.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#44

Post by ctdonath »

mikeash wrote: post #19
MCRed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, I saw the movie Logans Run (1970s). They made it to washington DC and found a car. They didn't know what it was, but they shined a light on it, and it started to activate and so they conclduded "maybe this thing is powered by the sun"... and it was. Well, it's been 40 years since that movie was made. Alas, a solar powered car may still be many years off... but the elegance of it is certainly extreme…

There just isn't enough surface area. A Model S has a roof area of around 9m^2. The sun provides about 1000W/m^2 on a clear day at high noon when directly overhead, so with 100% efficient solar cells on a perfect day, you'd get around 9kW of electricity. A Model S goes about 4 miles per kWh when it's doing well, so in this ideal situation you'd top out at around 36MPH. In the real world, the sun isn't directly overhe…

I recently ballparked the cost of a home solar charger for my Leaf EV. Came out around half the price of the car ... not cheap, but feasible for someone serious about it.

I do have a propane-powered electrical generator for emergency/backup home power. Some day I'll try charging the Leaf with it.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#45

Post by qbrass »

the_ancient wrote: post #36
_acme wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand that electricity is still needed to charge these cars, right, and that a lot of that energy comes from oil (or worse, coal).

Name one "oil" fired power plant? Coal yes, nat gas sure, hyrdo (which is where alot of MI power comes from) you bet yea but I have not seen a oil powered electric plant. further even is such a thing does exist, generating electricity has a much high efficiency then the IC engine which is by for one of the least efficient systems there is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Mich...

Also, while Michigan has a lot of hydroelectric stations, they don't account for more than a few percent of the state's electricity.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#46

Post by mark-r »

numo16 wrote: post #23
mark-r wrote: post #18

Does this really surprise anybody? Remember which state Detroit is in?

This also blocks GM/Ford/Chrysler from selling directly to the consumer. This isn't specifically Tesla focused, but is favoring the auto dealer network which wants to remain relevant and get their cut.

GM/Ford/Chrysler have a symbiotic relationship with their dealers - they both need each other to survive. Neither wants to see a new upstart that might someday eat their lunch.

Presumably if the makers had a do-over, they might try direct to the consumer themselves, but the present conditions make that impossible.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#47

Post by dkrich »

andykellr wrote: post #39
dkrich wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No justification is required because it's pretty much baked into the mentality of the Midwest. The auto industry is what drives the Michigan economy (at least its most populous areas). Therefore most constituents not only don't mind, but likely fervently support such laws. The same could be said for the United Auto Workers. Pretty much the opposite of the free market, yet most people in Michigan support it because ei…

Your generalizations about Michigan are misinformed. There are many people in Michigan that think that companies that sell things should be able to sell them to people that want to buy them. There are also many people that can afford a Tesla.

Your generalizations about Michigan are misinformed.

Not really. I lived in Michigan for several years.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#48

Post by SupremumLimit »

mikeash wrote: post #19
MCRed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, I saw the movie Logans Run (1970s). They made it to washington DC and found a car. They didn't know what it was, but they shined a light on it, and it started to activate and so they conclduded "maybe this thing is powered by the sun"... and it was. Well, it's been 40 years since that movie was made. Alas, a solar powered car may still be many years off... but the elegance of it is certainly extreme…

There just isn't enough surface area. A Model S has a roof area of around 9m^2. The sun provides about 1000W/m^2 on a clear day at high noon when directly overhead, so with 100% efficient solar cells on a perfect day, you'd get around 9kW of electricity. A Model S goes about 4 miles per kWh when it's doing well, so in this ideal situation you'd top out at around 36MPH. In the real world, the sun isn't directly overhe…

You probably mean 0.9m^2. 9m^2 is a decent size bedroom.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#49

Post by Igglyboo »

mark-r wrote: post #46
numo16 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also blocks GM/Ford/Chrysler from selling directly to the consumer. This isn't specifically Tesla focused, but is favoring the auto dealer network which wants to remain relevant and get their cut.

GM/Ford/Chrysler have a symbiotic relationship with their dealers - they both need each other to survive. Neither wants to see a new upstart that might someday eat their lunch. Presumably if the makers had a do-over, they might try direct to the consumer themselves, but the present conditions make that impossible.

Uh no they don't. The dealers need the manufacturers to survive, the manufacturers could easily open their own dealerships and sell their cars cheaper while running the old dealers out of business.

The dealerships do not benefit the manufacturer.

Re: Governor Snyder signs a law to ban Tesla direct sales in Michigan

#50

Post by rabbyte »

Couldn't somebody open a dealership that offers Tesla vehicles where dealers are replaced with touch screens that walk you through all the available options, scheduling test drives, and settling on payment? Staff would be there to make sure questions are answered, machines are operating properly, and verifying paperwork. I know nothing about this industry so I could be totally off base but that seems like a decent way to jab back at an aging system.
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