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Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

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Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#41

Post by enraged_camel »

javajosh wrote: post #23

This implies we have a police force that is unable to sense or react to nuance in a situation, and who implement a fast but error prone pattern matching algorithm to identify criminality - which is entirely consistent with their behavior. I suppose this wouldn't be a problem if we had a justice system that, presumably powered by better brains, could quickly throw out the inevitable false positives this quick and dirt…

The justice system is "broken" only if you believe that it's ultimate goal is justice.

The truth however is that it's simply double-speak. 1984 illustrated this beautifully. The Ministry of Truth was in charge of fabricating lies. The Ministry of Love was in charge of punishing and torturing dissidents. The Ministry of Peace was in charge of conducting perpetual war.

In our case, the justice system is in charge of injustice, for example by making sure that rich people remain in power and that their wealth and property are protected (from the poor) and ruthlessly prosecuting anyone who threatens the social order -- especially minorities.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#42

Post by fiatmoney »

Someone1234 wrote: post #26
fiatmoney wrote: post #25

Another "advantage" of the inverse cutoff is that it reduces the racial disparity in test-based hiring.

That statement is predicated on the assumption that one race is smarter than another, which is unlikely to be true.

The key phrase in there is "test-based". http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/S...

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#43

Post by dragonwriter »

callahad wrote: post #39
Someone1234 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That statement is predicated on the assumption that one race is smarter than another, which is unlikely to be true.

There is a persistent scholastic "achievement gap" between races in the US, which jives with fiatmoney's comment: a sufficiently unscrupulous (racist!) employer could use standardized testing as a proxy for racial discrimination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievement_gap_in_the_United_... (FWIW, I recently heard the term "opportunity gap" as an alternative to "achievement gap," and I quite like it: it puts the bu…

"acheivement gap" is a factual description of the outcome being described, "opportunity gap" (when used in the same context) is a (reasonable) hypothesis about the (or, used in a weaker sense, a contributing) cause of that outcome.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#44

Post by kevinskii »

BariumBlue wrote: post #28
vonmoltke wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience, wherein a National Guard recruiter actually talked me out of joining the army for that reason. I also flirted with the Navy nuke program as I was finishing up my EE degree, but decided to abort the process mid-stream. At my first job after graduating my cubemate was a former Navy electrican, stationed on a carrier. What he told me about the nukes made me happy I chose to abort.

as someone thinking about navy nukes, may i ask what was unpalatable about it?

I served in a non-nuke role on a nuclear submarine for 4 years in the late 90's. My two cents:

If you already have a college degree or are close to finishing, it's best to stay away from the military completely unless you seriously plan on making a career of it. As a civilian you'll have lots more opportunities for adventure and for making a positive impact in the world. Also avoid the trap of letting the military pay for your degreee in exchange for X years of service.

If you're thinking of joining the military prior to college as an enlisted sailor, go for it. You'll meet lots of very interesting people that you otherwise wouldn't, and you may develop some good habits that will help you later. Your personal definition of what is "hard" will probably change considerably.

But DO NOT join for more than 4 years. Any less and you'll be stuck scrubbing bilges the entire time. Any more and you'll go crazy from the lack of freedom, and your math/science knowledge will have seriously atrophied by the time you get out and continue your studies.

This brings us to the nuke program. Unless things have changed since I was in, nuclear power school requires a 6 year commitment. It's definitely not worth it. The skills aren't really that transferable and, judging from the many nuclear-trained sailors I knew, the work really can't be that difficult. Trust me, if you can get through beginning algebra, you can get through nuclear power school. Recruiters will try to flatter your ego and make you feel like a genius when you get a qualifying ASVAB score. I was told I got a perfect score on the ASVAB, and I'm more proud of the hippo I managed to color with a crayon when I was 5 years old. Quick, as fast as you can: What's 4/2? 2*3? 5-1? Next question: If a gear turns clockwise, what direction does the gear touching it turn? Congratulations! You qualify for nuclear power school!

Finally, in the likely chance that you end up serving on a nuclear carrier, you'll be working with some of the biggest dirtbags this side of humanity. Imagine sleeping in a dorm full of people who only joined the navy because they couldn't make it on the outside as drug dealers.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#45

Post by javajosh »

enraged_camel wrote: post #41
javajosh wrote: post #23

This implies we have a police force that is unable to sense or react to nuance in a situation, and who implement a fast but error prone pattern matching algorithm to identify criminality - which is entirely consistent with their behavior. I suppose this wouldn't be a problem if we had a justice system that, presumably powered by better brains, could quickly throw out the inevitable false positives this quick and dirt…

The justice system is "broken" only if you believe that it's ultimate goal is justice. The truth however is that it's simply double-speak. 1984 illustrated this beautifully. The Ministry of Truth was in charge of fabricating lies. The Ministry of Love was in charge of punishing and torturing dissidents. The Ministry of Peace was in charge of conducting perpetual war. In our case, the justice system is in charge of in…

I think that's a dangerous way to think about things - not dangerous because it will get you branded a Winston Smith and arrested, but because it sets up an unnecessary and unhealthy duality between us and them. Injustice in the criminal system is, more often than not, driven by smug complacency and convenient, lazy bias rather than any real desire for injustice. That is, the "majority evil" position is to simply do nothing while good people get shredded in the machine - they aren't actively trying to sharpen the machine's teeth.

Even the police who make mistakes, I would guess, are usually doing so out of laziness. The details take too much effort to see. The circumstances are always complicated. It's much easier to be happy if you are always "just doing your job". Check the boxes, go home and watch football.

The solution here is not to cynically label the system as unrepentantly evil, but rather to offer inducements to their job properly, by for example installing ubiquitous surveillance, and allowing supervisors (people with higher intelligence and morality) to review and punish police mis-behavior, and reward exemplary behavior.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#46

Post by Lendal »

mikeash wrote: post #35
Lendal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove a taxi for a year back in the 90's. Most drivers do play the waiting game, but that wasn't for me. The company I worked for awarded call-ins to the closest cab available rather than whoever waited the longest, which meant that you could develop a strategy of being at the right place at the right time to optimize your fares. This turned out to be a much more lucrative strategy than the sit-and-wait deals. I ra…

How did you figure out your strategy for being in the right place at the right time, and what sort of stuff did it consist of?

You learn the people of your town over time. When calls come out they usually come from certain areas of town at certain times of day or certain days of the week. You learn where all the bars are, when they let out, where those people are likely to go and what the odds are that that area will produce a new fare. Companies that are hiring a lot of workers at once house their workers in certain preferred hotels. Longer-term contractors are likely to live in certain other neighborhoods. In my case it was Jacksonville and you have a navy base here where a large number of sailors from various foreign countries will show up all at once needing to go places when their ship comes in. If you can anticipate when that ship will start its shore leave that can be worth money.

In Hollywood movies the taxi drivers will have random conversations with passengers to advance the plot. In real life, the purpose of this conversation is for the driver to learn where his next fares might come from. Sometimes the passenger will figure out what you're trying to do and will offer you valuable information. No reason not to. It's a win-win.

Not all drivers do this. Some companies hand out jobs to the next driver waiting in a queue so everything is fair and equal. Some drivers prefer this system. But this produces poor customer service because that queue of drivers might be on the other side of town, and the fare will be waiting a long time. I never quite understood that mentality. I never worked the airport because the airport does not reward hard work. It's just a dumb queue and the fares are unpredictable. Not profitable enough for me.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#47

Post by Lendal »

mwg986 wrote: post #37
Lendal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove a taxi for a year back in the 90's. Most drivers do play the waiting game, but that wasn't for me. The company I worked for awarded call-ins to the closest cab available rather than whoever waited the longest, which meant that you could develop a strategy of being at the right place at the right time to optimize your fares. This turned out to be a much more lucrative strategy than the sit-and-wait deals. I ra…

Where were you driving taxis? I was reading your comment expecting "I quit because I moved on to another profession" or anything else that wasn't taxi drivers getting killed.

Jacksonville. Certain areas of town are known for high crime and you take a risk working those parts of town. This was a long time ago, but two or three drivers got killed in like a month's time. It sucks for the people who live in those areas that they can't get good taxi service but you only get one chance at life. I can understand that desperate people do desperate things, but I am not desperate. I like my life so I prefer to stay away from those areas of town even today.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#48

Post by nishonia »

sosuke wrote: post #4

Having independent thought is hard to control in making a force of people. To have a force, an army, a unit of people, they have to respond predicatively to all commands. If you put together a force you must believe without doubt that they will follow your command. Police are selected and conditioned accordingly. The military does this as well, training people to kill, and be killed. In previous engagements having pe…

What you are describing might be true of other countries, but that isn't the way it works in the US. You aren't too far off on the military training issue, immediate obedience to orders is incredibly important - at the lowest ranks. The US military has an extremely long institutional memory, and over a couple hundred years they've figured out a way of doing this that works pretty well. The conditioning for immediate obedience to orders and illusion of immortality wears off after a couple of years, right around the time that personnel start picking up rank and assuming positions of responsibility over others. So by that time they won't be charging any machinegun nests, they'll be in a position to order others to do so - at this point it should be clear to you why filtering out intelligent people is a bad idea :) The conditioning wears off, but you can't fix stupid.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#49

Post by enraged_camel »

javajosh wrote: post #45
enraged_camel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justice system is "broken" only if you believe that it's ultimate goal is justice. The truth however is that it's simply double-speak. 1984 illustrated this beautifully. The Ministry of Truth was in charge of fabricating lies. The Ministry of Love was in charge of punishing and torturing dissidents. The Ministry of Peace was in charge of conducting perpetual war. In our case, the justice system is in charge of in…

I think that's a dangerous way to think about things - not dangerous because it will get you branded a Winston Smith and arrested, but because it sets up an unnecessary and unhealthy duality between us and them. Injustice in the criminal system is, more often than not, driven by smug complacency and convenient, lazy bias rather than any real desire for injustice. That is, the "majority evil" position is to simply do…

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not suggesting that the majority is evil. On the contrary, the majority are simply lazy and complacent. In 1984 this was captured perfectly. There is the Inner Party, who is a small, elite group who fabricate the lies and call the shots. There's the Outer Party, the relatively uneducated and loyal group that naively believes in the party's ideals and does its bidding (e.g. the police), and there's the general populace (what Orwell labeled "the proles).

The most remarkable thing about the setting in 1984 is that almost everyone believes that the Party is altruistic and noble and does everything (including conducting wars) for the greater good, and that any imperfections in the way the system works are unintended and can be fixed. Indeed, keeping up this illusion is so important for social order that it is the primary motivation behind the Inner Party's desire for total control through things like state-sponsored propaganda and ubiquitous surveillance.

Re: Can Someone Be Too Smart to Be a Cop?

#50

Post by tzs »

> The test, which is used by other employers, not just law enforcement, poses questions such as: “In the set of words below, what word is different from the others? A. Beef. B. Mackerel. C. Veal. D. Bacon E. Lamb.”

I hate that kind of question. There are at least two obvious answers:

B. The others are all food that comes from domesticated land mammals. Mackerel as a food comes from a fish. Mackerel is also different because it is both the name of the animal and the name of the meat: mackerel comes from mackerels, whereas beef comes from cows and bulls, as does veal, bacon comes from pigs, and lamb comes from sheep.

D. Bacon is a specific preparation of meat (cured) from specific parts (sides or back) of the pig. The others can be prepared in a variety of ways and can come from more regions of the animal.

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