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In Spain, Politics via Reddit

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Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#41

Post by netcan »

nhaehnle wrote: post #27
netcan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what is driving this all, I don't really think it is the EU, or even immigration. Those sound more like just the issues of the day, not political paradigm movers. The reality is that Europe has been in a state of ideological vacuum for a while. The hard right (including most dramatically fascism) really failed between 60-40 years ago as a movement. The hard left failed 25-35 years ago as a viable movement. T…

> The reality is that Europe has been in a state of ideological vacuum for a while. Correct. It appears that the established parties do not dare touch big visions any more. In itself, I expect most people would actually be happy with this, as long as it works. The problem is that in most of Europe it doesn't: the recovery from the financial crisis in the Eurozone is now actually lagging the recovery from the Great De…

I disagree about the financial crisis. Germans are not going hungry or cold due to financial hardship. There are issues to do with affordability of accommodation or transport, unemployment and rapidly changing labour economies but not food and realistically the standards that even Germany, France or Spain's poor demand today are far higher than they were generations ago.

I think it's often that realities are politically indigestible.

State institutions all over the world are big. All the political momentum (right and left) and big vision projects stem from expanding them have been done. School/University systems, health systems, welfare systems and such. These comprise 35-55% of national GDPs in most of fully developed European economies. You can't promise literacy for all to Germany. German's are literate and schools are free. A chicken in every sunday pot and fresh bread and milk for your breakfast. Those are things that Franco or Lenin promised to the common man. They don't move the needle any more.

We have institutional problems of big old and sometimes very clunky organizations. If your ask the institutions, they would like those problems solved painlessly with money. Pay teachers 2014 upper middle class salaries & 1970s pensions. Decrease class sizes and increase hours. Take care of the elderly financially then physically throughout their 30 year retirement. Do this in a way that does not burden the family. 12 month paid maternity leave. Fraternity leave. Unlimited medical care. Transportation with 2014 technology, 1970s labour ideals and 1950s prices.

Those are some serious demands. In many cases impractical. A state cannot usually bear this burden financially. Even if it can, it needs to be achieved through effectiveness.

What's needed/possible is reform, improvement, good operational governance of these enormous machines. That's unsexy. It involves long timescales and painful inch-at-a-time improvements.

Revolutionary dissidence is sexy. Political entrepreneurs do sexy.

They promise to tax the rich or corporations, something they would be doing already if they could. They might promise to alleviate the problems really sucking the money out of schools and hospitals, immigrants, Muslims, Jews, the EU or somesuch. ATM, they don't even have to worry about implementation as they are not going to govern in the near future.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#42

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

spindritf wrote: post #2

Hard to imagine a better place for leftist populism than Reddit. The fact that it's not popular in Spain is a feature here, allowed them to target the most engaged first. With the language barrier, probably also younger and better educated. It’s still early to predict what is in store for Podemos. I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy, just like dozens of parties across Europe who manage a decent showi…

> leftist populism

Populism as opposed to what? To the current ruling party, who has met exactly 0% of their electoral promises, who promised 4M jobs in their four-year term and has created approximately zero in three years, who promised not to cut spending on healthcare and education and has made tremendous cuts?

Or maybe as opposed to the main party of the opposition, who promised zero unemployment and brought employment up to 25%, and who denied that there was a crisis at all in the 2008 election campaign in spite of knowing perfectly (as anyone educated and informed knew) that the bubble was bursting?

It's very funny how people label Podemos as "populist" as if they had brought populism to Spain. Yes, Podemos is certainly populist... but no more than the two main parties and other not-so-main ones.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#43

Post by dragonwriter »

herge wrote: post #31
r0dia wrote: post #26

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this…

> 4.- Different elections: for executive and legislative (like in France) The two most powerful countries with non-figurehead executives (France and the United States) are perpetually beset with bickering and internal fighting instead of "checks and balances". Is a system with government shutdowns like we saw last year in the US, or François Hollands troubles in France any better than a system where all the power is…

> The two most powerful countries with non-figurehead executives (France and the United States) are perpetually beset with bickering and internal fighting instead of "checks and balances".

That's not so much a problem of a Presidential system as a problem of the a Presidential system in a country which also has a poorly-representative electoral system in general (particularly for the national legislature).

However, there aren't a lot of systems that have electoral systems that produce effective representation and Presidential systems in the same place.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#44

Post by dageshi »

nhaehnle wrote: post #27
netcan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what is driving this all, I don't really think it is the EU, or even immigration. Those sound more like just the issues of the day, not political paradigm movers. The reality is that Europe has been in a state of ideological vacuum for a while. The hard right (including most dramatically fascism) really failed between 60-40 years ago as a movement. The hard left failed 25-35 years ago as a viable movement. T…

> The reality is that Europe has been in a state of ideological vacuum for a while. Correct. It appears that the established parties do not dare touch big visions any more. In itself, I expect most people would actually be happy with this, as long as it works. The problem is that in most of Europe it doesn't: the recovery from the financial crisis in the Eurozone is now actually lagging the recovery from the Great De…

The fundamental issue with the EU is that it has rules but no flexibility. It cannot adapt to the new situation it finds itself in because to reopen any of the treaties in order to fix things that need fixing will cause a stampede of demands to alter other things in those self same treaties. Equally the "people" of europe are for the most part not willing to move more power from their national governments to the EU and we're at a point where additional powers will likely need referendums which in the current environment are unlikely to pass.

So things muddle along and will continue to do so, I don't yet see how or where it will change. It seems to me large parts of europe will have a lost decade.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#45

Post by mercurial »

blueskin_ wrote: post #39
mercurial wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll be hard-pressed to find anybody putting "hardline" and "Hollande" in the same sentence. The main, genuinely left-wing measure his government took was gay marriage (and, it should be said, was adopted in spite of large demonstrations from the catholic right) but the Justice minister has also attempted to reduce the ever-increasing overcrowding of French prisons, things like this. However, his reform of the fina…

Don't forget the tax hikes that effectively drove the rich out of France (to Switzerland mostly). Are those not left wing now?

Considering that Sarkozy was increasing tax pressure by the end of his mandate and would have probably done so again, had he been re-elected, not really. As for the rich, they've been practising tax evasion for a long time. I'm not aware that hordes of rich Frenchmen fled to Switzerland since Hollande got voted in, but I'll be happy to see numbers which prove me wrong.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#46

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

r0dia wrote: post #26

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this…

> 1.- Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, > Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the > proportional list system.

What? I feel much more represented by a list of people that share my ideas and projects for the country, than by whomever the majority of people in my city chose among some candidates from the city.

What's not democratic is first-past-the-post systems, where if in my city 30% of the people vote for candidate A, 25% for B, 25% for C and 20% for D, only 30% of the people get a representative and the rest of the votes go directly to the trash bin.

If anything the problem with the Spanish electoral law is that it's not purely proporcional, it has districts which doesn't make any sense.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#47

Post by narag »

netcan wrote: post #23
Imerso wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what politics in Europe look at all at the moment. The extreme right and the extreme left are growing a lot. And the center-right and center-left are pretty much merging in many countries, they are either governing in coalition, or they will have to govern in coalition in the near future if they want to remain in power. Syriza in Greece won the European elections and may govern in the future. FN is rising…

I wonder what is driving this all, I don't really think it is the EU, or even immigration. Those sound more like just the issues of the day, not political paradigm movers. The reality is that Europe has been in a state of ideological vacuum for a while. The hard right (including most dramatically fascism) really failed between 60-40 years ago as a movement. The hard left failed 25-35 years ago as a viable movement. T…

I wonder what is driving this all

Corruption. A lot. Spanish situation is kafkaesque right now. The former treasurer of the governing party is in jail. The prime minister sent him a SMS telling him "to be strong" when he was sent to prison. PM and rest of ministers were paid substantial extra from the construction companies briberies. No, they haven't resigned in two years. Only the scapegoat is canned.

Then similar scandals have arisen for the PSOE, former party in power until 2008, and CiU, the party that is promoting secession of Cataluña.

This week we have the phantom card show: bankers and politicians (politicians and union leaders are in the board of credit unions) using an opaque cards to spend 15.5 millions euros without paying any taxes.

Response from PP and PSOE has been very very very weak. They've lost credibility like... forever.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#48

Post by r0dia »

mercurial wrote: post #34
r0dia wrote: post #26

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this…

> Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you talking about undue importance given to small parties in such systems? > Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government. That's not how separation of power work…

> Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system.

> I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you talking about undue importance given to small parties in such systems?

No. The proportional list system prevents representativeness. The people whose name is on the list represent the one that put them on it. They do not represent the electors.

> Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government.

> That's not how separation of power works...

Exactly. I was explaining what happens in Spain.

> Imperative mandate: Sieyes abolished it during the French Revolution and it still to be restored in all Europe. The elected candidates in the legislative elections should remain loyal to their promises.

> I'm also not sure what you mean by "imperative mandate". As for promises... well, there are promises and there is political expediency.

The electors should have a contract with their representative and if they are not loyal to that contract they can be ceased.

> Different elections: for executive and legislative (like in France)

> I'm stopping you right here. It makes very little difference in practice, since the elections for the lower chamber happen right after the presidential elections. I also don't see how it's a benefit in general. It suffers from the idiotic, anti-democratic first-past-the-post system. I'd rather have a token President and a PM coming from a coalition instead.

It makes sense if you think about the different characteristics that you look for in a legislator in contrast to the values required to be a president. A legislator should be loyal to their representatives (a part) whereas what you are looking in a governor is intelligence to guide the Nation (all). It is nonsense to think that a good legislator could be a good PM (UK). Loyalty vs intelligence, that's why it should be different elections.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#49

Post by mercurial »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #16
blueskin_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UKIP are centre-left, not 'extreme right'. On economic issues, they're to the left of the big 'left' party in the UK (Labour, who are really a more centrist party) and only really go to the right on immigration rather than social issues in general. You're confusing them with the BNP.

I wouldn't call them centre-left, they're a bit of grab-bag of policies e.g. some member have been a bit libertarian (which can be socially "left" but economically "right" depending on particular issues). But Xenophobia is the biggest theme, see for yourself: http://www.ukip.org/issues

They're scoring pretty well on the class right-wing themes of "more police", "putting bad people in prison for a long time prevents crime", "down with environmental policies", "make sure these brown people pay taxes but don't get benefits". I'm liberally translating the program, in the spirit of their "No to Political Correctness - it stifles free speech" bullet point.

Of course "Teach children positive messages and pride in their country" (which immediately brought to mind a law passed by the right-wing in France aiming at emphasizing "the positive role of colonization").

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#50

Post by lmboullosa »

spindritf wrote: post #2

Hard to imagine a better place for leftist populism than Reddit. The fact that it's not popular in Spain is a feature here, allowed them to target the most engaged first. With the language barrier, probably also younger and better educated. It’s still early to predict what is in store for Podemos. I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy, just like dozens of parties across Europe who manage a decent showi…

Haha. You're so wrong.
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