Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too • Hacker News Board

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#41

Post by DSMan195276 » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #22

revo13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe the current treatment of Netflix by numerous service providers as "Fine". I am on AT&T Uverse and I have to route my Netflix traffic through a private VPN service in order to get HD quality video. Why? Because AT&T is holding me hostage, in the interest of negotiating with Netflix on the other side of the table for extortion fees. I pay for a certain level of access to the Internet. I expect to be…

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

Points worth considering:

ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed".

And it's worth noting that this is a case where the ISP is in complete control of the speed you get Netflix. There are many cases where the ISP doesn't have a hand in this, the server you're connecting to simply can't pump stuff out fast enough to go as fast as your ISP will let you. But in this case Netflix has more then enough server power (Which they paid for), but the ISP's are specifically slowing down the end connection to you're house to a lower speed then you paid for unless Netflix is willing to fork over more money.

It is almost exactly the same thing as if you were to purchase a 'subscription' to the post office where they guarantee your packages would be delivered in at least 10 days (when possible). But, packages from Netflix are purposely slowed down by the post office and get to you in 14 days instead, and the post office turns around and tell Netflix they need to pay more if they want the package to get to you in 10 days, even though you already paid for that speed.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#42

Post by duaneb » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:49 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #22

revo13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe the current treatment of Netflix by numerous service providers as "Fine". I am on AT&T Uverse and I have to route my Netflix traffic through a private VPN service in order to get HD quality video. Why? Because AT&T is holding me hostage, in the interest of negotiating with Netflix on the other side of the table for extortion fees. I pay for a certain level of access to the Internet. I expect to be…

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

> when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place.

Guess who pays for that ISP? The consumer, and the consumer pays by having to be on a shitty network where the operator blackmails the places that are popular, because they are popular. Also, the consumer pays through the nose for this service. And if all this money is going into infrastructure, why don't I see it reflected in my speeds?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#43

Post by revo13 » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:50 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #29

revo13 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would propose that it did exist as sort of a defacto state of the internet. Only in recent years have the telcos begun looking for revenue grown, leading them down the path of treating their subscriber base as some sort of resource to be bargained off to the highest content provider/bidder, while still charging large sums of money for the customer to have a connection.

That's not true (about the recent years) - there has been a lot of lobbying spent by the telcos and big cable for at least the past 10 years. Every time someone influenced by their lobbyists have tried to bring a bill to Congress to authorize them to charge for consumption, Congressmen have found that it was an immensely unpopular action and it would fail. The only reason why the actual charging started happening rec…

I realize it isn't only a recent years activity. However, when it was floated 10+ years ago, it was met with a certain air of hilarity. The groundwork has since been laid (including that court decision) to get us where we are today with respect to providers starting to get bolder in their operations and lobbying efforts, to the extent that certain assumed beliefs about the behavior of the Internet are being threatened in a legitimate way.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#44

Post by mercurial » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:52 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #24

bazzargh wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we have had this battle in the UK, and not just with BT. Most of the ISPs have at some point or other been accused of throttling BBC's iPlayer: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/06/02/why-bts-not-the-bigg... The UK government was against Net Neutrality legislation: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2010/11/17/uk-government-su... And again in 2011: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/2011/ed-vaizey%E2%80%99... Thi…

The EU is great for making member states do the right thing.

Sometimes. Speaking of which, I don't know how the net neutrality legislation is progressing with the EU commission.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#45

Post by rayiner » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:53 PM UTC

DSMan195276 wrote: post #41

rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what's unfair about ISP's charging Netflix when the ISP's are the ones that spent billions building the networks that made Netflix possible in the first place. Netflix is particularly unsympathetic in my eyes, because its just a middle man. Almost all the real value (the content, and the wires that deliver the content to consumers) is created by other people.

Points worth considering: ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed , not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". And it's worth noting that this is a case where the ISP is in complete control of the speed you get Netflix. There are many cases where the ISP doesn't have a h…

> ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed".

I think you're reading an "anything on the internet" into your service agreement that isn't there, but even then you have at best a case for false advertising. If ISP's were up front about these practices, would it be OK?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#46

Post by wrkng » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:59 PM UTC

revo13 wrote: post #6

rayiner wrote: post #2

Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down.

I would propose that it did exist as sort of a defacto state of the internet. Only in recent years have the telcos begun looking for revenue grown, leading them down the path of treating their subscriber base as some sort of resource to be bargained off to the highest content provider/bidder, while still charging large sums of money for the customer to have a connection.

yep that's right -- it was the de-facto state of affairs basically from the beginning of time until now

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#47

Post by keithpeter » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:59 PM UTC

I'm in the UK so our problems are a bit different e.g. the speed available for any service depends on the last mile; you can get a cable connection and pay for pointless services that you don't want as a package; you might win the Fibre to Cabinet post code lottery, or you stay on adsl over copper at around 2.4Mbits/sec; or you ditch the land line and pay for mobile.

I wish the campaign well.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#48

Post by wrkng » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 3:00 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #11

rayiner wrote: post #2

Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down.

> Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down. The FCC Order was motivated by a desire to preserve what was seen by many as the status quo ante that was, at the time the order was adopted, perceived to be under threat as big providers began discriminating against certain remote endpoints and applic…

yes exactly

this point is at the heart of the misleading rhetoric of the anti-NN crowd

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#49

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 3:00 PM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #39

mikeash wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just adore the "government is trying to destroy the free market" rhetoric when it applies to the internet. Do these people not know anything about the history of the internet, or do they merely choose to ignore it?

The history of the Internet as the most successful radical deregulation since the abolition of serfdom, or some other history of the Internet?

What deregulation, exactly?

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#50

Post by KaiserPro » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 3:00 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #18

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

The thing is, the problem of net neutrality has a pretty clear solution. You force companies to carry all traffic equally, give no special treatment, etc. It's not perfect, but it works. What's the solution to the problem of a lack of competition?

Until the market is competitive, its an intervention along the lines of tax incentives (carrot) or a specific regulator tasked with promoting competition amongst ISPs and the media.

None of which the US government is particularly good at. Which is a shame really.