How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#41

Post by basseq » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 1:08 PM UTC

crazypyro wrote: post #28

basseq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... poor are being targeted by speeding tickets at an even higher rate than average because police expect to get more ticket possibilities" Can someone explain this? Are the poor really being targeted? Why are there more ticket possibilities? (Because you could get someone for expired registration, too?) Is this a correlation ≠ causation thing? (I.e., police are more likely to pull over a speeder with multiple viola…

Older, more beatup cars tend to have higher "value" for the police officer. Someone driving a brand new Audi isn't going to have the same potential ticketing "value" as a 20 year old rusty car with a beat up bumper, as an example.

... because they're more likely to have multiple violations?

Interestingly, I wonder what has a higher value/ROI for "the system". A) A couple small tickets (worth, say, $200) that don't get paid, result in multiple missed court dates, arrest warrants, nights in jail, etc. Or B) A small ticket (worth, say, $75) that gets paid in full immediately, no court date required.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#42

Post by crazypyro » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 1:24 PM UTC

basseq wrote: post #41

crazypyro wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older, more beatup cars tend to have higher "value" for the police officer. Someone driving a brand new Audi isn't going to have the same potential ticketing "value" as a 20 year old rusty car with a beat up bumper, as an example.

... because they're more likely to have multiple violations? Interestingly, I wonder what has a higher value/ROI for "the system". A) A couple small tickets (worth, say, $200) that don't get paid, result in multiple missed court dates, arrest warrants, nights in jail, etc. Or B) A small ticket (worth, say, $75) that gets paid in full immediately, no court date required.

I'd imagine a large majority of all traffic tickets get paid. Knowing that, even if say the average chance of any given traffic ticket being 99% chance of payment, if the beat up car was instead 95%, or even 90%, but you can also tag on an expired tag fine, you've just made your department more money, over a number of traffic stops.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#43

Post by freehunter » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 1:34 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #38

freehunter wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of those fines were for speeding That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket. The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011 “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding Both were speeding tickets that he had neglected to pay. a warrant stemming from a 20-year-old speeding ticket. Speed seems to be…

What I notice is that you have not only isolated on one very circumscribed part of the article, but you have also chosen to blame the people getting tickets for infractions that have little to do with traffic safety. You have therefore missed the point of the article. I frequently observe this kind of "rational" skepticism in analytical people who are studiously avoiding something uncomfortable.

It's well known that speeding decreases your travel time linearly but increases your braking distance by far more than that. Generally if you double your speed, you quadruple your braking distance but only half your arrival time.

So no, it's not "rational" skepticism to avoid something uncomfortable, and yes, it has everything to do with traffic safety. Maybe you missed the part of the article where the person prone to speeding tickets got arrested following an accident? It didn't say she was speeding at the time, but speeding doesn't help avoid an accident at all.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#44

Post by freehunter » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 1:39 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #39

freehunter wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is any of us talking to? There are many comments here on this very thread that are talking to no one (including the top voted one about Finland. We don't make the traffic laws, who cares what Finland does?). The point of Internet forums is to have a discussion. It would appear we are having a discussion. ChuckMcM even linked me to an interesting-looking book. That's the point of Internet forums.

My point is your comment doesn't make any sense when directed at this community either. It's just a pointless statement of obviousness, phrased to communicate maximum superiority.

I actually have a reliable indicator as to a comment's value as well. If the person says they have a reliable indicator of a comment's value and use that to dismiss anything the person says (yet still finds the need to post a comment in response), in my experience that's a reliable indicator that the person is no longer saying anything useful and just wants to increase their post count, usually so the account has value when they sell it to a marketing company.

So what's the point in commenting if you don't think my post has any value? All I can come up with is that it makes you feel superior.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#45

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:07 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #44

mikeash wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is your comment doesn't make any sense when directed at this community either. It's just a pointless statement of obviousness, phrased to communicate maximum superiority.

I actually have a reliable indicator as to a comment's value as well. If the person says they have a reliable indicator of a comment's value and use that to dismiss anything the person says (yet still finds the need to post a comment in response), in my experience that's a reliable indicator that the person is no longer saying anything useful and just wants to increase their post count, usually so the account has val…

I had the obviously foolish hope that I might be able to correct your behavior.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#46

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:09 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #43

mturmon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I notice is that you have not only isolated on one very circumscribed part of the article, but you have also chosen to blame the people getting tickets for infractions that have little to do with traffic safety. You have therefore missed the point of the article. I frequently observe this kind of "rational" skepticism in analytical people who are studiously avoiding something uncomfortable.

It's well known that speeding decreases your travel time linearly but increases your braking distance by far more than that. Generally if you double your speed, you quadruple your braking distance but only half your arrival time. So no, it's not "rational" skepticism to avoid something uncomfortable, and yes, it has everything to do with traffic safety. Maybe you missed the part of the article where the person prone…

Impressive! Not only did you place blame on the victims in general for this whole situation, but you've now managed to blame the victim for a specific incident which is clearly described as being another person's fault. That takes some real effort.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#47

Post by mturmon » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 3:37 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #43

mturmon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I notice is that you have not only isolated on one very circumscribed part of the article, but you have also chosen to blame the people getting tickets for infractions that have little to do with traffic safety. You have therefore missed the point of the article. I frequently observe this kind of "rational" skepticism in analytical people who are studiously avoiding something uncomfortable.

It's well known that speeding decreases your travel time linearly but increases your braking distance by far more than that. Generally if you double your speed, you quadruple your braking distance but only half your arrival time. So no, it's not "rational" skepticism to avoid something uncomfortable, and yes, it has everything to do with traffic safety. Maybe you missed the part of the article where the person prone…

I observe that you'd rather discuss speeding than racism.

The tendency to divert uncomfortable conversations about race is one of the reasons our nation has arrived at this point. It has become a coping mechanism for us.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#48

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 4:51 PM UTC

brps wrote: post #30

As a resident of North County this rings very true. I had a crack in my window. Several hundred to repair that I did not have. Worked part time minimum wage while in college. Need my car to get to work and school. Registration renewal came up. I could not get it renewed because I had a cracked window. Over the next few months going to work to make money to fix my window so I can renew my plates, I get five tickets fr…

What strikes me about this article and your story is that the cost of operating a car safely and legally can be much greater than the bare minimum cost of just operating a car in general. But enforcement of that extra cost is random, leading a lot of people who can't really afford a car (like in your case) to keep operating one anyway, because they really need it.

Seems like the problem needs to be attacked from both ends. First, better enforcement to make it clear that you can't keep driving around without a registration, rather than making it look like a gamble each time. Second, better public transportation so that a car is less of a necessity, to give options to those who can't afford to operate one safely.

As it is, we're putting people in a situation where they need a car to survive, can't afford to operate one safely and legally, and then randomly and capriciously punish them for it.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#49

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #27

> Quinn’s client, for example, was the victim in a domestic abuse incident. But when the police arrived, they checked her occupancy permit, which only allowed for one person to reside at the apartment. The officers then cited the woman and her boyfriend $74 each for violating the permit. When Quinn protested that the law makes no effort to distinguish visitors from unlawful residents, the municipal prosecutor stated…

I wonder if there should be a rule that if the police are called out for something, they can't leverage their presence to nab somebody for a crime of lesser severity. If they get called out for domestic abuse and see a freshly-murdered body, obviously they should take care of that. But if they get called out for domestic abuse and find a minor violation of an occupancy permit, maybe they should be required to ignore it.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#50

Post by thaumasiotes » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 8:49 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #49

thaumasiotes wrote: post #27

> Quinn’s client, for example, was the victim in a domestic abuse incident. But when the police arrived, they checked her occupancy permit, which only allowed for one person to reside at the apartment. The officers then cited the woman and her boyfriend $74 each for violating the permit. When Quinn protested that the law makes no effort to distinguish visitors from unlawful residents, the municipal prosecutor stated…

I wonder if there should be a rule that if the police are called out for something, they can't leverage their presence to nab somebody for a crime of lesser severity. If they get called out for domestic abuse and see a freshly-murdered body, obviously they should take care of that. But if they get called out for domestic abuse and find a minor violation of an occupancy permit, maybe they should be required to ignore…

This doesn't work very well as a remedy for the problem "civil servants [judges/police/etc.] at low levels don't know what's legal and what's not". Police officers are even routinely given immunity for violating laws they weren't supposed to have known.