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Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

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Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#41

Post by pistle »

kghose wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

I think I agree with you. Your professional platform is not the same as your personal platform. The courses of action should have been 1. Resign from company and then air personal views (as explicitly personal) 2. Air personal views separately but say explicitly these are personal views. 3. Discuss matter in the board and come up with company approved policy statement - we will no longer do business with Google etc.…

2 & 3 are essentially not realistic once the funding faucet is turned on. 1 is your only hope - and she did it. Good for her.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#42

Post by aikah »

ewoodrich wrote: post #36
ssmoot wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Informed Consent. When I started using Google services many years ago, it definitely didn't occur to me they could basically track you across half the web. And you don't really get much of a choice in the matter. You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton. But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing. And to be honest, I'm not mu…

>But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing. Great point. Users are strongly encouraged to create a Google account when they setup a new Android device, and I suspect a significant portion have little-to-no idea about how their data is used.

I believe you are supposed to read and agree the terms of an agreement when doing that. 99.9% of the people dont even read the TOS.Who is to blame ? the user or the corporation ? I think both parties own a bit of the problem.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#43

Post by slantyyz »

timigen wrote: post #10

The Code Club board just taught their students a very important life lesson about what happens when you stand up for whats right.

I'm not sure I understand what the life lesson is.

In my mind, the battle with the board should be "either we drop the evildoing sponsors or I quit", not "I want evildoing sponsors' money but I still want to retain the right to criticize them or I quit".

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#44

Post by kjksf »

tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

It doesn't matter that what she says is a lie?

It's interesting how you twist yourself into a pretzel (you "probably", maybe, a little bit, think that what she says about the sponsor is a lie) to end up with the conclusion that her actions are somehow justified and the board is committing some terrible crime of censorship.

The validity of her complains is very much the core of the issue.

She only gave one example (that Google is "involved in corporate mass surveillance") and presumably that is in context of NSA spying and the consensus around that is that it's a lie.

At her level badmouthing a partner is grossly nonprofessional. Spreading vicious lies - that's a no brainer reason to fire her.

Also, let's not be naive about the context of her complaints. When she says "when someone asks me..." she (or the board) doesn't mean "my college friend at a dinner party" but "a member of the press".

And given the state of journalism, "the member of the press" is not interested in Linda's perspective on Google's spying because she has literally nothing new to add.

In that context the only value for the press is to reduce her views to a click-baiting headline of "Code Club board member accuses sponsor Google of mass surveillance" which would damage Google precisely because they were nice enough to sponsor Code Club.

If she complained about AT&T (which actually did illegally spy on Americans in massive constitutional violation, for which they received a retroactive immunity), there would be no story because AT&T is not a Code Club sponsor or Linda doesn't feel like complaining about AT&T.

I'm not privy to the details but the simplest interpretation of what we know is that she was hell bent on spouting nonsense of the "Google mass surveillance" kind to the press and the board was very justified in worrying about a press creating a mountain out of a molehill to the point they felt they had to intervene.

So far there is 0 evidence that Linda had some novel complaints that are serious enough to risk damaging an organization that helps kids learn to code. So far all I see a selfish, self-righteous individual.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#45

Post by gojomo »

tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

Are there examples of the criticism Sandvik engaged in, so we'd know if they fit your "forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director" standard?

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#46

Post by joelanman »

loso wrote: post #38

If I had a sponsor and an employee was criticizing the decision to say something to that employee would be based on how the criticism was done. If the person mentioned that they just didn't like Google's surveillance program then I would let it go. But if they ran around yelling about Google is evil because of said programs then we would have to have a talk. If I am running a small company and your personal opinions…

Code Club is a not-for-profit organisation, and Linda was a founder. It may cost them money, but don't the aims of the organisation come into it?

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#47

Post by chc »

petea wrote: post #24

What is actually bad about Google's "corporate mass surveillance"? It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any. Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services. Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much b…

The fact that you managed to get people to go along voluntarily with something harmful to them by presenting it as something benign does not make your actions ultimately benign.

And yes, there comes a point where simple observation crosses the line. This is generally recognized by society. If I take a picture on the street and a particular person happens to be in it, that is generally OK. Most people wouldn't look askance at that. If I take a picture of the same person through their bedroom window, I'm liable to be arrested and labeled a creep. The specifics of information-gathering matter very much to how OK it is in terms of social acceptance.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#48

Post by tptacek »

kjksf wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

It doesn't matter that what she says is a lie? It's interesting how you twist yourself into a pretzel (you "probably", maybe, a little bit, think that what she says about the sponsor is a lie) to end up with the conclusion that her actions are somehow justified and the board is committing some terrible crime of censorship. The validity of her complains is very much the core of the issue. She only gave one example (th…

What you see as me "twisting myself into a pretzel" is actually just me acknowledging that while I have arrived at an opinion about something, I might not be right about it.

One of the terrifying things about how online mass communication works is how quickly it locks us into the most stridently delivered conclusions that are compatible with our worldview. This is a good example.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#49

Post by georgemcbay »

ssmoot wrote: post #27
petea wrote: post #24

What is actually bad about Google's "corporate mass surveillance"? It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any. Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services. Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much b…

Informed Consent. When I started using Google services many years ago, it definitely didn't occur to me they could basically track you across half the web. And you don't really get much of a choice in the matter. You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton. But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing. And to be honest, I'm not mu…

"You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton."

Just expanding on your point here, but of course actively avoiding Google's sites isn't nearly enough -- unless you take very specific steps to block Google Analytics callbacks, Google is going to know virtually everything you do on the web whether or not you ever use them for search or go directly to any sites they own.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#50

Post by georgemcbay »

tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

Agreed both on the fact that I think she is overplaying Google's complicity and that the reaction to it was counterproductive.

Basically this is a variant of the Streisand effect -- I previously had never even heard of the "Code Club" but now I have a negative opinion of it and my opinion of Google is now slightly more tarnished (though my opinion of Google is already complex and multilayed and so the relative damage to Google here is not nearly as great as the damage to "Code Club").

OTOH, had I just read what she said about Google in an interview or whatever my opinion of "Code Club" would be neutral and I would think she was being somewhat unfair to Google (but far less so than a lot of more damaging claims I've seen people make).

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