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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#41

Post by coldtea »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

>We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives

You don't just need to have a "sane policy".

You need to have a sane culture.

For one, a culture that doesn't treat alcohol as something necessary for having fun (e.g binge drinking on weekends, etc), but as something social you can have while eating with friends, etc.

Second, a culture (society) that doesn't cripple people, produce mass stress and depression, etc so that they take it to alcohol and drugs.

As long as you don't have those, there will always be people taking it to alcoholism. Heck, even with those you'll still have some people (but much less). But then again people can destroy themselves in 200 other ways too, if they are so inclined (from over- and under-eating to straight suicide).

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#42

Post by coldtea »

Xylakant wrote: post #35
eru wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug [...] Only because of the wide spread of use.

No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/...

Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#43

Post by coldtea »

blueking wrote: post #31

I wonder why the government needs to force everyone to hit a collective rock bottom before considering a new strategy. Throwing everyone involved in jail was a bad idea from day 1. What they need to do is manufacture and sell the drugs at cost to registered addicts. This way you destroy the business of the drug cartels and you insure your citizens are at least using pure drugs. Regardless of the legality of the use o…

>I wonder why the government needs to force everyone to hit a collective rock bottom before considering a new strategy. Throwing everyone involved in jail was a bad idea from day 1.

Population control. For blacks, it's the modern day equivalent of Jim Crow laws, but for keeping a huge majority in prison.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#44

Post by awildone »

codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Portugal is certainly one step in the right direction. I lived and worked there for three months and it's all very relaxed. Cops don't really care about people rolling joints or even doing lines of coke in public if there's a party (and if you are in Portugal, there will be). Quietly puffing a joint while walking down the street in the middle of the day is cool as well. I actually never saw the cops interfere with anything while I was there, even though there are cops everywhere. There is one more thing about Portugal and drugs that needs to be said though: never, ever buy anything being offered to you. And you will be offered drugs ten times a day while just walking down the street. It's all fake, they're just out to scam you and steal your stuff, and they're pretty good at it. Just say no, thank you and go ask the cool kids hanging out in Martim Moniz instead. Good hash, coke and heroin is easily obtainable and cheap.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#45

Post by awildone »

awildone wrote: post #44
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Portugal is certainly one step in the right direction. I lived and worked there for three months and it's all very relaxed. Cops don't really care about people rolling joints or even doing lines of coke in public if there's a party (and if you are in Portugal, there will be). Quietly puffing a joint while walking down the street in the middle of the day is cool as well. I actually never saw the cops interfere with an…

Assuming Lisbon of course, but I guess that's where most people end up on their first visit to the country...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#46

Post by codeshaman »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse.

Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many have virtually no harmful physical effects on the body (based on decades of clandestine use and research).

I'm refering to psychedelics and marijuana, drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation. Apart from being much safer, some of these drugs have major upsides, when used therapeutically and can cure illnesses that modern medicine is unable to cure.

And if used by brilliant people to start with, they have the power to transform society in unbelievable ways: the tech revolution was started by young, brilliant people who've been inspired by psychedelic trips or psychedelic music/art/culture, produced by the counterculture of the '60s.

Some drugs, like heroin or cocaine have both a big abuse potential and can be harmful to the body, although none are as destructive as alcohol. Rational and sensible recovery and detox programs, combined with unrestricted access to safer drugs (like marijuana) can reduce the risks associated with these 'hard drugs'.

Portugal decriminalized drug use due to the alarming rates of addiction to opiates among youth in 2001. As a consequence, the opiate addiction problem is pretty much under control there.

Nicotine is another extremely addictive substance, yet sensible policy and access to valid information has led a lot of people to quit using it due to health concerns in developed countries, although developing countries have seen a rise in nicotine use.

On the other extreme - countries which ban all kinds of drugs (including alcohol) are seeing strong religious domination, which leads to extremism and terrorism, so total prohibition of altered states of consciousness is also bad.

There is a great book, called 'Animals and Psychedelics' in which it is reported that most animals, including insects are using various plants to intoxicate themselves, even though those plants are not suitable as food. They just like to get stoned or high or drunk and go to great lengths to find their intoxicants.

We should accept once and for all that human beings seek and require altered states of consciousness and not treat drug use as a 'societal cancer', but rather try to understand - why do we do it ? Why do animals do it ? Is there a evolutionary benefit in it ? Are there good parts in getting high, besides having fun ?

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#47

Post by untothebreach »

coldtea wrote: post #41
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

> We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives You don't just need to have a "sane policy". You need to have a sane culture. For one, a culture that doesn't treat alcohol as something necessary for having fun (e.g binge drinking on weekends, etc), but as someth…

Couldn't agree with this more. It seems that too often we look to policy to solve problems that really need to be addressed at a lower level. The problem with that is that changing the law is easy, when compared with changing the culture.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#48

Post by brianmwaters_hn »

johnchristopher wrote: post #8
kynikos wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a resident and commnications director/volunteer for a couple of campaigns, I've learned a Republican in Vermont is almost always like a Democrat in any other state.

Living in Europe, never having set a foot in the US, I take the bait: what is a Democrat like in Vermont then ?

In Burlington (the smallest biggest city in any state), our local elections are between Democrats and Progressives. Republicans don't even make the ballot.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#49

Post by tim333 »

>“This is an experiment,” Shumlin says. “And we’re not going to really know the results for a while.”

Good stuff. I really wish those in power would more often try a scientific/engineering approach to see what works rather than politicians shouting about war on whatever.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#50

Post by pionar »

codeshaman wrote: post #46
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

> drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation.

Sorry, a sample size of one does not make a drug "safe". The fact is, there's no such thing as a safe drug, as everyone's body reacts differently to each one.

> although none are as destructive as alcohol.

Really? Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the most addictive drugs in the world, is not as destructive as alcohol? While there are more alcoholics than horse heads, that's because there's more people that drink alcohol as a whole. Are there any studies for the ratio of abusers/users for heroin and alcohol?

> Nicotine is another extremely addictive substance.

The difference being, nicotine's psychoactive effects are minor compared to hard drugs. People don't die from a nicotine overdose.

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