Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't entirely disagree with you, I get what you're saying. But I definitely don't see Windows as being tightly focussed nor a single predictable entity. The differences, nuances, and upgrade paths between 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8 are as fragmented and confusing as possible. Linux isn't any better, this is true. But I don't buy that it's because of singular vision that Microsoft continues to dominate. Today Appl…
Apple has zero corporate presence because as far as I can tell, they don't really try. We tried setting up some Apple TVs at my work to use as an AirPlay target during presentations. But Bonjour can't cross subnets (or something similar), so we couldn't do it. And Apple were absolutely uninterested in providing support.
Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
41–50 of 51 posts
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#42I'm sure many will say that the failure is the exact implementation of Linux, or miscalculated expectations, or incompetent sysops, or, or... They're all right. But it's also exactly the problem with Linux in a corporate environment. For better and worse, Microsoft have made Windows a single, predictable entity. While we developers see the myriad of Linux options out there as the result of freedom, customers see them…
I don't entirely disagree with you, I get what you're saying. But I definitely don't see Windows as being tightly focussed nor a single predictable entity. The differences, nuances, and upgrade paths between 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8 are as fragmented and confusing as possible. Linux isn't any better, this is true. But I don't buy that it's because of singular vision that Microsoft continues to dominate. Today Appl…
This is perhaps because you know about the topic. The average user, because MS dominated most computer interactions that they've had, psychologically feels quite comfortable with it.
But I don't know if Linux is ready for the desktop yet. IMHO it's place is in the back-end.
Because Linux has more freedom it attracts developers/coders/programmers that also value freedom over vendor support. Any *nix flavor offers more hackability than MS.
And I think you'll find that the folks who use it think more freely when designing solutions as well.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#43Google Translate butchers the article badly, but https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr... suggests that this is more of a personal ambition of the vice-mayor and the city council is positioning itself firmly against any move back to Windows. Ultimately, it is more surprising that things even managed to remain this peaceful so far. Windows holds a huge home advantage simply by being the operatin…
Makes me wonder - why hasn't anyone made a Linux desktop environments that tries to mimic Windows look and behaviour as much as possible? IP/patent issues maybe? There would be a huge market for something like that, as this situation shows.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#44Google Translate butchers the article badly, but https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr... suggests that this is more of a personal ambition of the vice-mayor and the city council is positioning itself firmly against any move back to Windows. Ultimately, it is more surprising that things even managed to remain this peaceful so far. Windows holds a huge home advantage simply by being the operatin…
Makes me wonder - why hasn't anyone made a Linux desktop environments that tries to mimic Windows look and behaviour as much as possible? IP/patent issues maybe? There would be a huge market for something like that, as this situation shows.
At the end of the day, any OS that requires some command-line at any point has failed to appeal to the mass market. Instead of Windows, Linux would be better off mimicking Mac as it tries to be as unobtrusive as possible while still leaving the command-line power intact.
Linux needs to escape the Uncanny Valley of general purpose computing to become more mainstream.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Makes me wonder - why hasn't anyone made a Linux desktop environments that tries to mimic Windows look and behaviour as much as possible? IP/patent issues maybe? There would be a huge market for something like that, as this situation shows.
Linux Mint with Cinnamon? I think its good enough since I've managed to convert at least 42 user from Windows to that. Its been almost 2years and they still stick with that.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#46Google Translate butchers the article badly, but https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr... suggests that this is more of a personal ambition of the vice-mayor and the city council is positioning itself firmly against any move back to Windows. Ultimately, it is more surprising that things even managed to remain this peaceful so far. Windows holds a huge home advantage simply by being the operatin…
As one of those computer-literate relatives / offspring, I can't help but feel like I'm contributing to the problem by helping them "fix" their windows computers. So I've stopped doing it. I've explained politely but firmly that I'll be happy to help them transition to a Linux or Mac desktop because I use those in my daily life and am familiar with them, but I'm not helping them with their Windows 8 PC. I do not use…
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#47Doesn't surprise me really. Despite the advances of some of the more popular distros, Linux still appeals to the power user, not to the casual user. I was reminded of that just recently when I was having to do some googling, sudo apt-get some libraries, and chmod some stuff, just to use a piece of fairly popular software, on Mint, one of the more approachable distros. I was struck by the thought "...I would never, ev…
I'll take "fix things on my own machine" above "try and figure out if today's random shareware is safe to download from this site". I googled just as much in my windows days as I do now in my linux days, but it was for different things. "...I would never, ever want to have to walk (elderly neighbor who has asked me for tech support help in the past) through this". Having worked in support, there's nothing magical abo…
Yeah, I know there's nothing magical about Windows; I think a large part of it is that most of the basic user functionality 'just works', without additional knowledge. If you understand the difference between click, double click, right click, and click and drag, and the idea of a folder system, you can figure out how to do everything you need in Windows with some minimal experimentation.
With Linux, that's oftentimes not enough. It's not even clear -when- it's not going to be enough, and what other knowledge you're going to need.
I guess it basically boils down to, in Windows, the kinds of things I ended up supporting were generally regressive in nature, "this thing used to work and now it doesn't" or "My computer is running slow now", etc, and between an antivirus and system restore, you have a pretty good nuke it from orbit option.
Linux, it's both regressive (every Linux admin has pain stories where they botched a command in the terminal and destroyed their system), and progressive "how do I make it do X?" issues. Which can be extremely painful (I still don't have a good remote desktop setup between my work and home Mint VMs. Is it because I picked the wrong windowing managers, the wrong RDP client/servers, etc? Who can say! I got tired of trying to deal with it after a couple of hours).
Now, if the person is, yeah, just using the machine for Facebook and email, Linux is probably a better option. But for the types of tasks needed in an administrative bureaucracy, I can why Windows would be easier.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#48The problem ultimately is that any Linux distribution turns what are usually normal user-level issues into sys-admin issues.
The problem really is that for those of us who grew up with windows, we encountered all the oddities and breakages gradually over time. Then when we switch to linux, we encounter all the new oddities all at once, and have a preconceived idea of how an operating system should work and even look like.
Very few normal user "I don't know how to do this" problems on Windows or OS X require sys admin level skills. These days most things you want to do either just work, or are discoverable just by poking around in menus and trying a few things. When something doesn't just work in Windows or OS X there's usually a GUI somewhere that solves it.
As soon as you hit a problem in Linux, it almost inevitably requires you to fire up a terminal and start editing config files, dealing with permissions, building from source. And half the time if you screw it up, you're left with an unusable system.
If you don't believe me, pick a distro, and start reading through the help forums for that distro, questions that involve normal user type problems like "I don't know how to share this folder on my network" or "audio doesn't work". As soon as a user has to open a terminal to do something, they've become a system admin.
For example, here's the instructions for backing up and restoring a hard drive (Keep in mind, this is 2014) http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2234758
Again, in 2014, here's the "fix" to keep your windows on the correct monitors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwJl3ohmmqc&feature=youtu.be
Or, "I can't browse a windows share on my home network" http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169149
Here's the instructions for "getting a list of software that's installed on my computer" http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=261366
How to install a scanner http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2166420
A fun drinking game you can play with Linux tutorials intended to solve normal user-level issues:
- count the steps until a terminal is open, drink that number of shots.
- for every sudo command, drink a shot
- every time a file has to be edited or redirected, drink a shot, pipes are two shots
- every time a permission has to be changed, drink a shot
- if the user has to run a script, drink a shot
- if the user has to apt-get (or equivalent) something that has a completely non-discoverable name that you just have to "know", drink two shots. If it's an apt-get for something with a guessable name, 1 shot.
- if the user has to concern themselves with overwriting files or making backups of something, drink a shot
- if the user has to compile something, drink a shot
- every time the user has to 'ps' or 'kill' a process, drink a shot
- if the problem is the result of the distro updating a library, drink two shots
- if the problem is the result of an arbitrary compatibility issue with something that has an incompehensible name (like pcmanfm), drink a shot, if the problem is because of a minor version difference, drink two shots
- if it's a problem that only exists on Linux because the rest of the world is ignoring it (like access to streaming media sites), drink 2 shots, if the solutions are complex and require multiple shots to get through (see all of the above), then don't work, drink 2 more shots
- for every page of follow up in the forum that's proposing the solution, drink a shot.
Here's an example of a simple game. An answer to the question of "how do I watch netflix in Ubuntu"
> why don't you just inst all netflix
> To install on Ubuntu / Mint -
> Start terminal 1 shot
> $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:ehoover/compholio 1 shot for sudo, 2 shots for nondiscoverability
> $ sudo apt-get update 1 shot for sudo
> $ sudo apt-get install netflix-desktop 1 shot for sudo 1 shot for apt-get
> and then find the NetFlix Icon under Video click to install and you are done. no shots, but why couldn't this just be done via a gui?
Total Damage: 7 shots of hard liquor. Congratulations, installing netflix has just made you an alcoholic.
Here's a 33 page discussion on installing the ePSXe playstation emulator. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=612021 Congratulations you've now died of alcohol poisoning.
The Windows version of this is
1) download the install file 2) unzip it 3) run the epsxe.exe file
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#49Google Translate butchers the article badly, but https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr... suggests that this is more of a personal ambition of the vice-mayor and the city council is positioning itself firmly against any move back to Windows. Ultimately, it is more surprising that things even managed to remain this peaceful so far. Windows holds a huge home advantage simply by being the operatin…
Makes me wonder - why hasn't anyone made a Linux desktop environments that tries to mimic Windows look and behaviour as much as possible? IP/patent issues maybe? There would be a huge market for something like that, as this situation shows.
Re: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem really is that for those of us who grew up with windows, we encountered all the oddities and breakages gradually over time. Then when we switch to linux, we encounter all the new oddities all at once, and have a preconceived idea of how an operating system should work and even look like.
No, it's much more complicated on Linux. Very few normal user "I don't know how to do this" problems on Windows or OS X require sys admin level skills. These days most things you want to do either just work, or are discoverable just by poking around in menus and trying a few things. When something doesn't just work in Windows or OS X there's usually a GUI somewhere that solves it. As soon as you hit a problem in Linu…
As soon as a user has to open a Windows management console, they've become a system admin, too. Device Manager? That's sysadmin. You seem to have missed my point about 'preconceived notion of what an operating system looks like'.
Half the stuff you're complaining about is equally stupid in windows. Have to download a tool from some slightly dodgy site to fix your problem? Two shots. Windows config file edited? A shot. Install a .reg file? have another shot. Run something in an cmd window that's been raised to Administrator (not easily discoverable)? have a shot. Have to kill something in Task Manager? Another shot. Ignore the log, "just reboot to clear the error"? Another shot. Random new icon on your desktop from your mystery tool? Another shot. A brand new phone-home tool-specific updater and possible spyware? Two shots. Windows auto-update does an autoreboot overnight and kills open documents? Have another shot. Never suggesting looking in the logs for an insight to the error? Another shot. If the installer is actually a preloader, and it loads an unknown-size payload? Have a shot. Download "mouse drivers" or "network drivers" from your motherboard provider and they're somehow bigger than 100MB? (even bigger than 1MB?) Have a shot. The tool you're looking for is described on a shitty page full of ads for crapware? A shot. The tool you're installing has a drive-by download of some shitty toolbar, with a pre-checked tickbox? Have another shot (hello Adobe Flash!). You need some special media library just to view support resources from your vendor? Take a shot (hello, Silverlight!).
What about the glorious nature of the AMD GPU Catalyst drivers? On a new Windows install using inbuilt drivers, the display is understandable low res, 640x480. You can open the Catalyst drivers to start setting them up, but you can't see the OK/Apply button, and you can't move the top of the window off the screen, because it's taller than 480 pixels. If you don't know how that screen should work, it's just not discoverable. It's been a problem for years.
You're picking and choosing pretty damn hard there, my friend. OSX has largely solved a lot of these problems (mostly by locking things down hard, particularly on the hardware side of things), but Windows sure hasn't.