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An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

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Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that explains anything; it looks like a list of aesthetic "faults" that the author finds, unlikely to be recognised by anyone without a degree in linguistics. Surely those faults exist, but it's a stretch to pretend that they alone explain anything. I speak some Esperanto but I'm no zealot. The "explanation" that your neighbours don't speak Esperanto, if such a simplified thing can exist, is probably as…

Agreed: studying Esperanto now makes as much sense as striving to provide CP/M compatibility in your product.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think you agree with me at all.

I think Esperanto is a fun hobby and I have fun toying with it every few years, even if I'm under no delusion that it's a practical way to, say, do international business. I do think that if it or any universal second language (French, English, Mandarin, whatever) were to suddenly become more widespread, the world would be better off.

My claim was only that the reason that it's not more widespread has nothing to do with subjective flaws in the language itself.

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#42

Reading this story brings to mind the history of algorithms in the field of machine translation. Early attempts at the problem attempted to explicitly define the rules of converting between tongues using meticulously laid out systems of vocabulary and syntax. This approach proved untenable, in part due to the complex and ever changing nature of language. Modern systems such as Google Translation make use of machine l…

In fact it doesn't just sound like an experiment worth doing. It sounds like something that somebody somewhere might have already done.

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#43

This is attracting some reader interest here, so I should probably mention, for other Hacker News participants deeply interested in human languages, a definitive analysis of Esperanto[1] explaining why Esperanto has not caught on with more speakers. [1] http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/

What I wrote about Esperanto and its failure to go viral:

"There's already an existing language that fulfills so many of those criteria that it's going to be very hard to organize a new one from scratch. And the existing language already has a deep legacy of literature and culture.

That language is the world's second most widespread: Spanish.

Spanish has been destroying the dreams of Esperantists and others over the years who hope to build a more regular, orderly, and easy to learn common language based on common Indo-European roots.

Turns out that it's dang hard to design anything easier or more accessible to speakers of any European language than Spanish already is. The spelling and pronunciation are already completely regular and predictable. The grammar is straightforward and common to almost all European tongues. The vocabulary is mostly based on Latin with some Arabic variety thrown in, but it's been standardized over the centuries so that a lot of it has a simpler and more natural morphology. The sounds are a simple subset of what most languages already use.

It's a great second language: it's fairly easy, the world's second most widespread tongue, and spoken in warm countries with very friendly natives. It's not likely to provide you with many lucrative business opportunities, though. None of the world's financial capitals use it."

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#44

This is attracting some reader interest here, so I should probably mention, for other Hacker News participants deeply interested in human languages, a definitive analysis of Esperanto[1] explaining why Esperanto has not caught on with more speakers. [1] http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/

I don't think that explains anything; it looks like a list of aesthetic "faults" that the author finds, unlikely to be recognised by anyone without a degree in linguistics. Surely those faults exist, but it's a stretch to pretend that they alone explain anything. I speak some Esperanto but I'm no zealot. The "explanation" that your neighbours don't speak Esperanto, if such a simplified thing can exist, is probably as…

After reading it, I would say it is really written badly, but the author's point seems to be that most of Esperanto's structure was basically designed at random, with no particular goals in mind, other than looking superficially similar to other European languages. His substantive objections are as follows:

* the language has an excessive number of phonemes

me: On this point I disagree strongly. A language with more phonemes can form shorter words and convey information faster. that's just basic math (43^9 >> 16^9)

* the vocabulary is too large to be practical and has dubious links to other languages. specifically, Basic English requires far fewer (>10x fewer!) words for competence and is more recognizeable due to worldwide borrowing.

me: Here I agree. The amount of memorization required is quite large and borrowing words doesn't make up for it. Interlingua took a better path, but it targeted the only continent that doesn't need it.

* synthesis mechanisms are irregular and insufficiently general. in particular, esperanto's semantic structure and word synthesis fail to allow the speaker to compensate for missing vocabulary by using compound words or overly general words with attached descriptors

[I don't understand this sort of thing, but it sounds serious]

* the alphabet is needlessly complex. it uses symbols people do not recognize and cannot type in favor of ASCII digraphs with wide recognition.

me: Also, it does not accord significant importance to the way that an orange bikeshed would clearly clash with the trees in the background.

Okay, fine, I agree. This is just putting the nail in the coffin at this point.

* the noun-to-verb-to-adjective declension is not compatible with the structure of meaning, and so cannot be extended in a consistent, predictable way. that is to say, the variety of possible verbs is such that it is basically undecidable what noun should correspond to a given verb in the general case, and vice versa.

me: I don't know this but as far as I can tell he's right. For example, what is the "verb" associated with "electron"?

* the language is inherently sexist.

me: This is not a trivial criticism.

So there are some substantial criticisms in the article, methinks. And you can't discount the impact of difficulty on network effects: if one person has too much trouble learning Esperanto, they're not going to pass it on to their friends, who will not pass it on to their friends.

I wonder if a language designed to be usable with as small a core as possible -- something the author suggests -- could have a substantially better chance of catching on? Perhaps if it were also good at borrowing words from other languages ("extensible"), and grew in the right community for a little while...

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed: studying Esperanto now makes as much sense as striving to provide CP/M compatibility in your product.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think you agree with me at all. I think Esperanto is a fun hobby and I have fun toying with it every few years, even if I'm under no delusion that it's a practical way to, say, do international business. I do think that if it or any universal second language (French, English, Mandarin, whatever) were to suddenly become more widespread, the world would be better off. My clai…

Sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was just trying to underline the fact that if you put "CP/M compatible" in the ad for your product you'd get exactly the same response from most people, i.e. "uh, what?"

And probably the same response after you patiently explained them what CP/M (or Esperanto) was: "Why the hell should I care about that? Give me something that works with Windows (or Mandarin) so I can work with a sizeable portion of the rest of the world !!!"...

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#46

This is attracting some reader interest here, so I should probably mention, for other Hacker News participants deeply interested in human languages, a definitive analysis of Esperanto[1] explaining why Esperanto has not caught on with more speakers. [1] http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/

What I wrote about Esperanto and its failure to go viral: "There's already an existing language that fulfills so many of those criteria that it's going to be very hard to organize a new one from scratch. And the existing language already has a deep legacy of literature and culture. That language is the world's second most widespread: Spanish. Spanish has been destroying the dreams of Esperantists and others over the…

Spanish is a beautiful language, I speak some myself, it's probably better than Esperanto or the more European-focused Interlingua, but... consider the number of forms of a regular verb:

(lavar (present lavo lavas lava lavamos lavan) (past lavé lavaste lavó lavámos lavarón) (imperfect lavaba lavabas lavabamos lavaban) (future lavaré lavarás lavará lavaramos lavarán) (conditional lavaría lavarías lavaríamos lavarían) (present-subjunctive lave laves lavemos laven) (gerund lavando) (participle lavado))

And that's ignoring the twenty or so irregular verbs and roughly ten "irregular" patterns (e.g. querer). It's a lot simpler than French or Italian, to be sure, or Latin, for that matter, but it could be a lot easier.

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#47

Reading this story brings to mind the history of algorithms in the field of machine translation. Early attempts at the problem attempted to explicitly define the rules of converting between tongues using meticulously laid out systems of vocabulary and syntax. This approach proved untenable, in part due to the complex and ever changing nature of language. Modern systems such as Google Translation make use of machine l…

Maybe it could use Minimum Message Length http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_message_length

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#48
post #42

Reading this story brings to mind the history of algorithms in the field of machine translation. Early attempts at the problem attempted to explicitly define the rules of converting between tongues using meticulously laid out systems of vocabulary and syntax. This approach proved untenable, in part due to the complex and ever changing nature of language. Modern systems such as Google Translation make use of machine l…

In fact it doesn't just sound like an experiment worth doing. It sounds like something that somebody somewhere might have already done.

To be glib, it has been done. We call it language.

Seriously, though, take a look at the link I posted in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180924

One of the techniques used is to computationally create a space of possible ways to partition semantic domains on a plane whose dimensions are simplicity and informativeness, in order to look at where in the possible space it is that real languages lie. While it's not been done (to my knowledge) for a whole language, it's potential direction to go.

Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)

#50

Ithkuil seems like what a language should be: as the article said, it is both precise and concise. It looks the way Esperanto ought to have looked. I find Quijada's effort deeply impressive. I don't know much about designing human languages, but I know how hard it is to design a decent programming language (see http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html ), and building a serious human language seems orders of magnitud…

58 different phonemes means the language is just substituting one form of complexity for another.

And apq’uxasiu for 'gawk' doesn't strike me as a particularly huge win for conciseness.

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