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Macintel: The End Is Nigh

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41–50 of 156 posts

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#41

Apple does look like it's making chips to handle heavy workloads, not just to compete with the latest Krait or whatever. But I'm not sure ARM Macs are the direction they'll take that. It'd make some business sense for them to instead position iOS so it can take over more and more traditional Mac duties. The IBM push could be an example of that. Investing in iOS gives Apple the tight control and the 30% cut they're us…

> why is this ARM OS like my Intel OS but without all my apps?

The problem should be much smaller on OS X than on Windows. Apple has a culture of breaking things regularly, instead of worshipping backwards compatabillity.

The result is that most Mac apps are kept up to date by the developer. Recompiling for an arm-based OS X shouldn't be an issue.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#42
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

What does the Mill have to do with either the article or the original comment? The Mill (while cool) is completely different and incomparable. What makes more sense is comparing an x64 to an ARM chip.

The article, and quote from the root of this thread, may well be wrong in the detail but correct in the long-run as evidenced by the ideas exposed in the Mill.

The comment I was responding too seemed to be generally discounting the possibility that there was any room to improve upon the internals of Intel CPU's which was the motivation for linking back to the Mill.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#43
As much as i want this to happen. I dont see this coming in the near future. Why would they release the new MacPro with Intel Xeon if they had ever planned to switch away? And would MacPro be staying in x86 land if Apple decide to switch the rest to ARM?

Another obstacle is Thunderbolt. This DisplayPort + External PCI-Express Cable is totally in control by Intel. AMD's version is based on USB 3, which is an ugly hack that Apple will unlikely use.

The performance gap between Haswell and A7 is huge. Watts to Watts, at Notebook / Desktop power range Intel wins hands down. Although the gap is shrinking with each Ax SoC.

Then there is the part about Intel Atom losing on performance. Which is wrong. Intel Atom SoC performs really well. It didn't get much wins simply because of its ecosystem and prices.

The Mobile SoC market are operating at thin margin comparatively speaking. Even if Intel are offering Atom at the same price, why would any OEM wants to be bound by Intel & x86 again? So Intel decide to offer those SoC at a lost and what happened? On the Western world it is dominated by Qualcomm where it offer better solution or cheaper TC with its integrated Modem. In Eastern World or China it is hit by "8 Core" marketing team from MediaTek. Everyone thoughts more Core = better.

I dont see how Intel is going win this Mobile battle. Apple will pretty much drive Intel to where they want, which is to Fab SoC for them.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#44
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that iOS shares a lot of the same code as OS X will make this a much easier transition. Apple can take a lot of the low-level stuff from iOS, where they've had years to figure out how to get Darwin working smoothly on ARM. Beyond that, all apps on the OS X app store will have to be recompiled and resubmitted. None of the binaries installed on current OS X machines will still work, unless Apple includes an x8…

Do you have any idea if they could pull off X86 emulation on a theoretical but plausible ARM chip? It seems like a really hard thing to emulate an i7 or am I missing something?

You're not missing anything.

I once managed to create a cross-build system "wrong way". (OBS made this error both possible and easy.) I tried to build some pretty heavy x86 software (QtWebKit) and ended up creating a config that used a cluster of panda boards to run qemus in x86 emulation mode.

To my chagrin, I didn't realise the error until I was wondering, after ~5h, why my build was still not finished.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#45
post #26

What would happen to the cost, battery life, and size of an A10-powered MacBook Air? It would be worse in almost every aspect. The cost wouldn't change much, and Apple wouldn't profit much more from the switch. The cited CPU cost is the suggested retail price . Apple's volume lets them negotiate huge discounts. Battery life would go up a bit, but battery life is already pretty good on Apple laptops. My 2013 11" Air g…

You say that ARM chips are 10x slower than Haswells, but the difference isn't actually that large anymore and for Apple's A7 it's around 3x versus a normal desktop chip like the 4770 and only 1.7X versus the 4250U you'd find in a Macbook Air[1]. Diminishing returns is a constant factor in engineering and I'd expect it to be very hard for Apple to make up the remaining distance between themselves and Intel, but we shouldn't exaggerate how large that difference is. And it is possible that some hypothetical A8 could be made competitive with Intel in the 15W range due to not having to make the compromises required to hit 4 GHz.

I do agree that the ~10W you'd save by using an A7 versus an 4250U in a Mackbook Air would be a false economy.

EDIT: To explain that bit about targeted power ranges a bit more, to hit high frequencies at a given process node (like 45 nm or whatever) you need to break up your logic into a fairly high number of simple stages separated by clock driven latches. A core that doesn't worry about hitting high frequencies can divide up it's logic into fewer stages, simplifying design and requiring fewer transistors for latching.

[1]http://www.computingcompendium.com/p/arm-vs-intel-benchmarks...

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#46
post #9

If this happens I hope entry level Mac’s get below $500. I bought a MacBook Air for use as a Windows machine with the plan to learn iOS development at some point. It was worth the cost since I can use it as my day to day machine running Windows. I wouldn’t be able to justify spending $1000 on a Mac Laptop that could not run Windows. I could justify $400 for an entry level Mac Mini running ARM but not a lot more then…

FWIW, it should be able to run ARM Windows, right?

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#47
While I think the article's prediction is incorrect (see my other comment for why), it did give me an idea: Why doesn't Apple design their own x86 CPU?

Their work on the Ax series has probably taught them quite a bit that could be ported over to x86-land. Also, Apple could leave out x86 cruft they don't use: legacy addressing modes, PAE, etc. And of course, they could design the CPU specifically for their products instead of searching for the closest match sold by existing vendors (or cajoling Intel to tweak their designs).

Apple already has strong relationships with fab companies. They have the talent and teams to design such a CPU. One wonders if they're already working on such a thing. Even if it never shipped, it could be used to negotiate lower prices from Intel.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#48

These arguments make no sense. Aside from anything else, the computing power of the Mac I'm currently using—quad 2.4GHz Ivy Bridge—is so far in excess of anything that is available in the ARM architecture that it's difficult to see this being the case at any point.

There are people building serious 64 bit arm chips, for server type applications. No idea what actual performance will be yet.

Re: Macintel: The End Is Nigh

#50
post #26

What would happen to the cost, battery life, and size of an A10-powered MacBook Air? It would be worse in almost every aspect. The cost wouldn't change much, and Apple wouldn't profit much more from the switch. The cited CPU cost is the suggested retail price . Apple's volume lets them negotiate huge discounts. Battery life would go up a bit, but battery life is already pretty good on Apple laptops. My 2013 11" Air g…

What if Apple introduced workstation-class ARM another way; made a really powerful iPad/iPhone which could sit in a dock with keyboard/mouse/monitor, and run both iOS and ARM OSX?

x86 computers could continue to exist for high-end users, but typical-users might be content with a hybrid tablet/computer. As ARM increased in power, x86 might dissapear entirely.

Your comments on Windows compatibility/virtualization are spot on. Cloud streaming, Citrix/XenApp, can help in some situations here. In a few years virtually all major apps will probably be cloud/browser based (Microsoft Office, Adobe Suite, streaming games/apps, etc). Windows on Mac might not be as important then. It's possible Microsoft might release ARM Windows too (besides RT). If ARM gets popular in the datacenter you may see Windows Server 2015 ARM Edition. They've done this in the past with Itanium.

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