Live data from Hacker News

Time for programmers to grow a spine

cahlan.tumblr.com

41–47 of 47 posts

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#41
I think that choosing a life of being a perpetual precariat is likely to be a bad choice. You can view extreme risk taking as brave or as desperate and foolish.

But I also agree that programmers should grow a spine. In modern society they actually do have substantial power if they acted collectively on some issues.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#42
post #6

>> I am amazed at how many people use those excuses and yet watch 15 hours or more of T.V. per week. T.V. isn’t inherently bad, but it is a distraction. If you work a 40 hour week and then watch T.V. (or video games, etc.) for 15 hours, you might as well be working in a startup. They don’t all require 80–100 hour weeks. TV and computer games do not require the same level of attention, involvement or energy as work do…

There are some video games, maybe mostly competitive, which certainly do take a lot of mental effort, concentration and insight. Sometimes to the point that those gamers can become exhausted from playing those games.

I guess the point is that everything can be taken seriously enough to the point that it becomes something which takes a lot of effort (and that effort can be rewarding or stressful).

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#43
Dude, you're projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else. If you think you're at a stage where you've figured out how to live a meaningful life, you're haven't.

I was particularly struck by this "I hope you didn’t work a safe job, at a safe company, in a safe industry for your entire life. I hope you weren’t content chipping away at your 401k day after day, year after year."

"Hi, I'm an individual who didn't struggle financially in life, my job afforded me the luxury of traveling and engaging in activities that make me happy." To me, that's it. If you can do that, plus have your health and collection of interests that keep your mind entertained, you did it. Life is very difficult for the majority of people. Surviving the best you can, enjoying what's out there, doing things that make you happy, is all you can do.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#44

“the risk is too great” may also mean “the risk isn’t sufficiently compensated”, which is pretty common for early employee offers at startups. You’re bidding against Google, Apple, Facebook, etc, which pay large salaries for top talent and will almost surely be in business next year. There’s nothing wrong with risk, but many people reasonably expect to be paid a premium to take it on.

Those places pay better salaries than startups for middling and bottom-barrel talent, too. Hell, even companies that aren't famous for being tech companies, but still leverage technology workers heavily, pay better base salaries than most of the startups I've seen.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#45
post #23

How am I supposed to spend time with my family if I'm expected to be at work from 9am until 7pm (that would be a 50 hour work week)? Also, I assume that most startups either offer unlimited vacation (which from what I've heard means you don't get to take a lot of vacation), or they offer 2 weeks of vacation to start out. So, I have a couple hours at home with my family and only a couple weeks out of the year to take…

It can be done, that said, it can't be done in most startups.

Many startups are composed of mid-twenties white males. The culture of work becomes 10am to 8pm, then go drinking.

If you have a family, you could work 7am to 3:30pm and be out the door in time to see your family, then work some more at night. But you'll get glares, and eventually you won't be a "team player" or whatever they decide to make up.

If you can find a startup run by people with children it can be a good fit, but you don't know until you interview.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#46
I mostly agree with what the author is saying, although I would argue that it has nothing to do specifically with programmers. Our entire culture is risk-averse, preferring a "safe" job to the potential reward of starting a business.

Here is one (anecdotal) example. I have been working on a business idea, and everyone tells me it is a good idea. I even have a working prototype. But the conversation always turns into a discussion about getting a job. I ask for a few hundred dollars to help with the business, they say no. Then later in the discussion they offer (without me even asking) a few hundred dollars to help support me while I find a job. Either way it is a few hundred bucks, but the job is acceptable, the business is not. This happens even for other investments where I show them numbers and we have a high probability of making money. Even then, no.

Even outside the world of business, people are afraid of risk. Even something as simple as trying a new food is too risky for some people. Our culture is so risk-averse that it is frightening.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#47
If you are trying to advertise an open developer position at your company, I can't think of a worse way of doing it.

What's wrong with you, McFly? Why won't you work for your good pal Biff? You chicken?

I have worked at a startup before. And I have worked in "safe" jobs. Truly safe jobs don't even exist any more. If I'm going to be "at will" anywhere I go, I'm going to make my primary job the one where the employer can reliably make payroll for the foreseeable future.

Never mind even 40 hours a week. If you're a startup, I might give you that 16 hours you think I waste on leisure activity as my second job, in addition to the primary job I can count on to pay my bills. I'll go full time with you only when I start to believe you're not going to make me unemployed, burnt-out, and homeless six months from now.

People aren't just looking for base pay. They want financial security. It does no good to offer a $150k annual salary if the business ledger says that you can only pay that for three months. It does no good to offer a potential $1M in stock options, if the VC or private equity investors are going to ensure they never pay out. People are not stupid, and a lot of people in this industry have already been burned multiple times. So telling them to just stop being pussies and to get their asses back in the fire is insensitive and condescending. And I'm already sick of working for people who don't respect me.

Post reply on HN