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U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

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Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#41

Post by cynicalkane »

crdoconnor wrote: post #38
cynicalkane wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in…

>As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened i…

You're absolutely right--H1B workers do not have nearly enough rights.

I don't really care for whatever else you have to say. Try speaking to me like a rational adult instead of telling me to "shut the fuck up".

EDIT: I find it incredible that, judging by the downovtes, people seriously think I am obligated to respond to someone who has shown so little respect to me.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#42

Post by bicknergseng »

potatolicious wrote: post #36
bicknergseng wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably not a ton of people here who would disagree with the phrase "the USA needs more tech workers." There are probably quite a few who disagree with the phrase "the USA needs more tech workers at the expense of its current tech workers." Do you see the difference? If MS, Google, Cisco et al want to import workers, they should be paying them the same amount as their American counterparts, rather than pul…

> "If MS, Google, Cisco et al want to import workers, they should be paying them the same amount as their American counterparts" They are. You're pointing the finger at the wrong people. I've met many a Google/MS/Amazon/Facebook H1B and they are all making very good salaries, on par or better than their American peers. This list should be enlightening: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx The…

Hm... I do know tech companies are much better than the consultancies, but your source doesn't compare H1 salaries with W2 salaries. I seem to recall another set of data with Cisco in particular paying H1s much, much less than W2s, though I couldn't find it again in 18 seconds of Google searching.

This probably all circles back around to the social and employer pressure against sharing salaries thats been circling around HN the past couple of days.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#43

Post by bicknergseng »

cynicalkane wrote: post #34
jquery wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not depressing to see people's political attitudes change with more experience and in response to life experience and new realities. It's actually quite refreshing. You should be far more worried about the opposite, someone who uses ideology as a mental shortcut. > In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in their jobs, then you hear them talk abo…

> Since when did economists have tech worker interests in mind? All bow down at the altar of GDP, everyone else can burn. Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having a very marketable degree. I don't know of a single economist, not even any Austrian nut-jobs, who seriously think GDP is more important than human welfare. But hey. Tell me, seriously, wh…

>Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having the most marketable degree in the world.

Wait. Is that a serious sentence?

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#44

Post by lkrubner »

cynicalkane wrote: post #23
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in…

There are 2 mistakes in your post. First this:

"I think it's very selfish to oppose H1B visas. America is wealthy compared to almost everywhere, and phenomenally wealthy compared to many of the places these H1B workers come from."

Your reasoning applies to immigration, not to H1B visas. If America is wealthy and should share its wealth with others, then it should have open borders. H1B visas bring in foreign workers on a temporary basis, tie them to a specific job, and therefore leave them in a precarious situation, unable to demand pay increases. If you believe that America should share its wealth via immigration, then you should be fighting for a more generous availability of green cards, not H1B visas.

About this:

"The downvote button is not a disagree button. If I'm wrong, tell me why."

Paul Graham has specifically said that the downvote button can be used to express disagreement.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

"I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness. It only becomes abuse when people resort to karma bombing: downvoting a lot of comments by one user without reading them in order to subtract maximum karma. Fortunately we now have several levels of software to protect against that."

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#45

Post by freyr »

mavelikara wrote: post #35
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

It's in the best interest of a nation to welcome the best and brightest workers with open arms. H-1B visas are a very bad approach towards that goal.

The H-1B program, in its current form, suppresses wages because employees have no leverage or bargaining power with their employer. The visa is held by the employer, and if the employer wishes to terminate the visa, the employee may face immediate deportation. If employees had some more flexibility in changing jobs, the power balance wouldn't be so one-sided.

On a side note, there's a question as to whether the H-1B visas are actually being used by employers to attract top talent, since the majority of H-1B visa applications are for the lowest wage bracket. Also, from U.S. News and World Report:

"Between 2007 and 2009, Accenture hired nearly 1,400 H-1Bs, yet during that same time it sponsored a mere [2 percent] of its H-1Bs for permanent residence. Clearly, many employers choose the H-1B program for cheaper temporary labor rather than permanent immigration."

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#46

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective.

I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good.

But in some specialties, developers are scarce in the US. They're probably also scarce worldwide, but the greater wages available here could entice them to immigrate.

In my niche in particular it's hard to find good developers for anything like reasonable wages. And in my specialty, it's not possible for a typical "generalist" to just hop in and learn quickly; for what I do, you'd need a broad background in C, C++, cross-platform issues, Windows, Android NDK, and Unix-ish development environments, as well as real-time/game experience. Someone missing any of those would have a steep learning curve.

I hear stories of developers making $500k+ per year, or getting job offers worth millions. At that level, then yes, I think we could stand to see a bit of downward pressure on salaries. I'm not quite there myself, though at my salary's current rate of growth I could see hitting that threshold in ten years or less.

That said, I do actually agree that H1B workers are often illegally used to pay below-market salaries. [1] I don't know how to combat this other than through better monitoring and stronger enforcement of the law. (For example, if an employer is found to be paying less than they should, forcing them to retroactively pay the difference in wages+penalties to any affected employees would be a strong motivator to pay them enough.)

Currently, H1B workers need to be paid 100% of the "prevailing wage"; maybe a higher threshold like 110% (or pick a number that makes sense) would convince critics that these workers are really hard to find in the US? Because if you can't find someone locally for 110% of the "prevailing wage" then that's a compelling argument that they aren't here.

[1] "Employers affirm in the labor condition application that the wage offered to the applicant is at least as high as that paid by the employer for the same type of job, and the number equals or exceeds the prevailing wage for the job in the same geographical area" http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1b-visa-requirements.html

[edit] added comment about "hire a generalist" not being good enough

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#47

Post by Cherian_Abraham »

mavelikara wrote: post #35
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

Chengannur :)

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#48

Post by freyr »

hga wrote: post #39
waps wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is smart enough to calculate the differential of equations is smart enough to see there's little money in those jobs. You see this in practice. STEM graduates do 3 things, in my experience. Work in management, work in IT, and work in academia. I wouldn't count on any of having up-to-date science knowledge except the academic ones.

Plenty of them with serious math chops, such as MIT EECS graduates, become quants in Wall Street and the like, at least for a while.

> Plenty of them

Wall Street does draw some students from the math/physics/EECS departments of the very top ranked schools, but this represents a tiny percentage of students graduating nationwide with STEM degrees.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#49

Post by krschultz »

mavelikara wrote: post #35
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win, even if it puts a little downward pressure on wages.

However, I don't equate H-1Bs with permanent immigration. There are limitations on duration of stay, what happens with your spouse/family, switching employers, etc etc. That really doesn't lend itself to people moving their whole family to the US and buying into becoming permanent residents. If all we get out of the H-1B program is downward pressure and wages and people that will come for 5 years, make a bunch of money, go home and not come back, then I am against the H-1B program.

Note that I 100% put the blame for this situation on the US immigration policy and not the people that are H-1B holders. I am sure most of them would love to get a green card or even become a US citizen, but for some reason we've gone from 'Give me your tired poor huddled masses' to 'Oh you have a masters degree in an engineering degree and want to move here to start a business? Too bad!'.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#50

Post by Chronic29 »

peterb wrote: post #27
kordless wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, you can look at the fact that he historically doesn't vote for education bills, so that pretty much makes him a hypocrite. Can't blame a company for trying to hire the best trained people to do a given job.

But I can blame companies for conspiring to hire the best trained people to do a given job at the lowest possible price . H-1B visas, offshoring, anti-compete clauses and non-poaching agreements are their key tactics.

So you're saying we should always pay the best people above the market rate? Why would you pay $70k for a new Tesla if you can get one for $40k?
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