First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out • Hacker News Board

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#41

Post by eropple » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:45 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #26

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

Because our schools SUCK. Not 100% of them, but 95+% of them. The schools do not teach independent, rational thinking, nor do they do a decent job teaching American history or historical American political values. In fact, they are much more likely to attack them. For example, by claiming that the Founding Fathers were slaveholding bigots, or that early settlers were genocidal. Both of which are oft-repeated claims t…

> For example, by claiming that the Founding Fathers were slaveholding bigots, or that early settlers were genocidal.

This is not the first time you have attempted to recast the movement towards truth in academics into "real American" victimhood. You may be distressed to find that the world still does not change because of your desires, that it will not ignore the beliefs in black inferiority put forth by men like Jefferson, and that it certainly will not ignore that even as late as the Civil War the people in charge of this country--among them some guy named A. Lincoln--thought it best to deport black people at the end of slavery because they were unable to conceive of an integrated world.

Heroification of impressive-but-flawed individuals has approximately fuck-all to teaching anything of use with regards to this problem. But you know that, you just for some reason have a problem with the idea that the Founding Fathers were, as a product of their time, kind of a bunch of bigoted dudes, and you really have to beat that drum that it upsets you and it's kind of tiring.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#42

Post by cottonseed » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:46 AM UTC

drcode wrote: post #10

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

As an American, I don't think there's a way to stop this through the democratic process: If a whistle blower publishes details showing the government is running "Project X", and we "kick the bastards out" that authorized it via the ballot process, and the government shuts down "Project X" as a result, all the NSA needs to do is rename it "Project Y". I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.

I agree, it is hard to know what to do. I called my congressman several times, including before every relevant vote. He voted to defund the NSA, was a co-sponsor the Freedom Act and then voted against it after it got gutted, for what it's worth.

Money is the language of power in American politics. If we want change, we need well-funded organizations that understand how to wield influence in Washington. I donate to the EFF and the ACLU.

Technology businesses also have money and know how to lobby. In fact, I think that's our strongest leverage point. Stop using the services of companies that work with the NSA or have architectures that enable surveillance. Tell them why you're doing it. I have been slowly divesting myself of known PRISM-collaborators including Google, Apple, Skype and Facebook (the ones I used). I deleted my Facebook account. I moved my email to Fastmail.fm. I started using startpage.com. I maximized the opt-out in my Google account. I installed CyanogenMod. This will be my last Apple laptop. I stopped using Dropbox and switched to ownCloud. There is still further to go. There are services where I haven't found viable open/private/secure alternatives (maps, video chat, youtube is ubiquitous). I got SSL certificates (free) for my site and set up a Tor hidden service.

I started using and supporting security and privacy oriented technologies. I spun up a Tor relay on my VPS to donate the unused bandwidth to the Tor network. I started routing my email and chat connections through Tor. I started using TextSecure and OTR. (Sadly, almost nobody I know use them.)

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#43

Post by leapinglemur55 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:47 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

The average person just doesn't care, and anyone who tries to tell them otherwise is labelled a conspiracy nut and ignored. The only response they give to finding out that the government knows their exact gps location 24 hours a day and can listen to any and all of their communications is "So what?" Companies like Foursquare exist because people not only don't care about issues like this, but are actively trying to help them.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#44

Post by couchand » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:49 AM UTC

staunch wrote: post #39

drcode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. "Trust us, everything is fixed now. No, we can't go into detail for national security reasons."

Your pessimism is not supported by history, as was my point. You have to explain how we got from an FBI that blackmails people to an FBI that really and truly does not.

We just shunted those responsibilities off to the NSA, it seems.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#45

Post by Cyther606 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:49 AM UTC

drcode wrote: post #10

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

As an American, I don't think there's a way to stop this through the democratic process: If a whistle blower publishes details showing the government is running "Project X", and we "kick the bastards out" that authorized it via the ballot process, and the government shuts down "Project X" as a result, all the NSA needs to do is rename it "Project Y". I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.

Let's fund a pay-per-install Tor Browser program. It would start by paying ISP techs BTC to install Tor Browser on every customer's computer indiscriminately. Maybe even make Tor start up in the background. If everyone is using Tor all the time, nobody is suspicious, and we can go back to having relative free speech on the Internet at least.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#46

Post by blendergasket » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:49 AM UTC

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #19

frostmatthew wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They celebrated 4th of July yesterday, celebrated their freedom and liberty as their government takes away those core values. For most Americans it's a day of barbecues, fireworks, and beer without much (if any) thought or celebration of freedom and liberty.

Really? I can't click on any link on the web about Independence Day without being bombarded with messages about freedom and liberty which leads me to believe that it is in the minds of US citizens when this day comes about

Semantic drift.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#47

Post by Cyther606 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:56 AM UTC

staunch wrote: post #39

drcode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. "Trust us, everything is fixed now. No, we can't go into detail for national security reasons."

Your pessimism is not supported by history, as was my point. You have to explain how we got from an FBI that blackmails people to an FBI that really and truly does not.

I'm sorry, but is your optimism supported by history?

There's no way to hold above-the-law institutions to the same standards as the public, by definition. Curb the NSA's budget and they turn to the black budget. Restrict them legally, and they find ways around it.

The only way to win is through ubiquitous deployment of anonymizing technologies that take the power away from corrupt, centralized institutions permanently.

Another thing you can do is find out who of your friends is or has ever worked at the NSA, and refuse to communicate with them. Refuse to give them jobs. Refuse to sell them products and services. Shun them, stomp them, and starve them out!

DOX the NSA.

Let them feel America's outrage for real, and in public. Let's embarrass these asshats, and make their lives a living Hell. Treat them like dirt until they wish they were in Russia with Snowden.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#48

Post by blendergasket » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:59 AM UTC

staunch wrote: post #18

drcode wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I don't think there's a way to stop this through the democratic process: If a whistle blower publishes details showing the government is running "Project X", and we "kick the bastards out" that authorized it via the ballot process, and the government shuts down "Project X" as a result, all the NSA needs to do is rename it "Project Y". I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.

You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. We've already come a very long way. The FBI used to blackmail politicians. The CIA used to frequently replace foreign leaders and even pulled that trick on us one time. Now we have a much more subtle form of unconstitutional behavior. Like Bush before him, Obama thinks it's his "#1 job is to protect…

>The FBI used to blackmail politicians.

How do we know they don't still?

> The CIA used to frequently replace foreign leaders and > even pulled that trick on us one time.

It will be really interesting in a couple decades if we ever get to see a glimpse of what has been happening behind the scenes in Ukraine and Venezuela, not to mention throughout the Middle East.

I just feel sorry for all the people who are having to endure such violence. I can't even imagine the horror.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#49

Post by enraged_camel » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 3:06 AM UTC

staunch wrote: post #39

drcode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. "Trust us, everything is fixed now. No, we can't go into detail for national security reasons."

Your pessimism is not supported by history, as was my point. You have to explain how we got from an FBI that blackmails people to an FBI that really and truly does not.

Yeah, the FBI no longer blackmails politicians. Instead, we have NSA, which conducts mass surveillance on the entire population and does who knows what else. If you think history shows some sort of improvement in these trends, you're hopelessly optimistic.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#50

Post by girvo » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 3:08 AM UTC

cottonseed wrote: post #42

drcode wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I don't think there's a way to stop this through the democratic process: If a whistle blower publishes details showing the government is running "Project X", and we "kick the bastards out" that authorized it via the ballot process, and the government shuts down "Project X" as a result, all the NSA needs to do is rename it "Project Y". I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.

I agree, it is hard to know what to do. I called my congressman several times, including before every relevant vote. He voted to defund the NSA, was a co-sponsor the Freedom Act and then voted against it after it got gutted, for what it's worth. Money is the language of power in American politics. If we want change, we need well-funded organizations that understand how to wield influence in Washington. I donate to th…

One of the best parts of cancelling my Google Apps account was that it asked for feedback. I wrote that while I love the service, as a foreigner I can't in good conscience use it while the political environment in the USA is what it is. I doubt it will change anything, but it's something I guess.