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The Death of the Urdu Script

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Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#41

Post by sharjeel »

alieteraz wrote: post #28
616c wrote: post #25

So I skimmed the article once, then read it again. I see the writer is here. I just want to say I understand your sentiment, but your title and content are filled with some annoying misinformation and discrepancies. First of all, Nastaliq is not "the Urdu script". If you even skimmed Wikipedia, you would notice that the script does come oringinally from Arabic (where it is used, but more to your point, sadly not as m…

You are correct about the history. Unfortunately the Abbasid empire came to an end in 1258 AD and Urdu wasn't even around then. I take your point that naskh has been wide-spread. And it is true that it is even in the Indian sub-continent. Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. That doesn't mean th…

> Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet.

Saying that Sindhi is Naskh based language while Punjabi is Nastaleeq based language is like saying English is Arial based language while French is Times New Roman based.

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#42

Post by sfjailbird »

616c wrote: post #25

So I skimmed the article once, then read it again. I see the writer is here. I just want to say I understand your sentiment, but your title and content are filled with some annoying misinformation and discrepancies. First of all, Nastaliq is not "the Urdu script". If you even skimmed Wikipedia, you would notice that the script does come oringinally from Arabic (where it is used, but more to your point, sadly not as m…

I find it interesting that many variations of Kufic script, which as far as I know is the 'original' Arabic script, seem to be almost ideally suited for print/digital reproduction.

With the square normalized forms it almost looks like QR codes: https://www.google.com/search?q=kufic+script&tbm=isch

This is in contrast to modern Arabic writing which seems to be geared to handwriting, with its flowing and connected shapes, kind of like old Latin cursive scripts.

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#43

Post by adamnemecek »

pjmlp wrote: post #40
adamnemecek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether languages are really worth preserving. I'm not a native English speaker yet I don't really have much emotional attachment to my first language. In fact, my life would have been easier if I grew up speaking English. And it's not that I think that English is somehow inherently a better language, it's more that there is a lot more people speaking it. It's kind of like if you are deciding what ope…

Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that. In the several millions we are able to speak and write, there have been lots of languages taking that role. And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help. Besides languages represent culture, not a…

> Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that.

I'm aware of that.

> And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help.

I guess it's not just about sheer numbers but also about what sort of stuff is produced in the language. E.g. the expert books are mostly written in English. You don't even have to go that far, e.g. there aren't all that many say compiler books that were not translated from English, that are up to date and not terrible. This is for me more important than being able to have a discussion with Bhutani farmer.

> Besides languages represent culture, not all concepts are expressible across all languages and they are also a door to our past as mankind, sure they are worth preserving.

Well it's a tradeoff. And I think that at some point the cost of preserving them outweighs the benefits.

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#45

Post by pjmlp »

adamnemecek wrote: post #43
pjmlp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that. In the several millions we are able to speak and write, there have been lots of languages taking that role. And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help. Besides languages represent culture, not a…

> Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that. I'm aware of that. > And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help. I guess it's not just about sheer numbers but also about what sort of stuff is produced in the language. E.g. the expert books…

> the expert books are mostly written in English.

This depends very much on the domain.

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#46

Post by Rapzid »

I don't like how the article opens with the premise of a people struggling their whole lives to master writing in a particular style only to have their expression oppressed, then proceeds to talk about font rendering..

Generally though, I'm not really sure how I feel about trying to get people to care about something so precious in general. One one hand it's a shame to lose culture. On the other the internet/technology has its own culture and is it really lost in the age of 5c per GB storage?

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#47

Post by [deleted] »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #10
mchaver wrote: post #6

For web development, perhaps you could create a simple system that detects if the user's device supports nastaliq. If not convert, it to naskh or Romanized Urdu (not sure which is preferred). As for dealing with all the data already written in naskh and Romanized Urdu, this is a bit more complicated because I am guessing there is not a one to one match between naskh and nastaliq (naskh has less letters), and Romanize…

Data is stored as Unicode (except some really old desktop app formats that were written before Unicode). Naskh and Nastaliq are font styles, used when the system displays the data. The solution is simply that good Nastaliq fonts be created and then used on websites where Urdu is being used. Since Urdu fonts can be much larger in size than Roman fonts (the fonts have to specify joining behavior between all possible co…

[deleted]

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#48

Post by Rapzid »

pjmlp wrote: post #40
adamnemecek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether languages are really worth preserving. I'm not a native English speaker yet I don't really have much emotional attachment to my first language. In fact, my life would have been easier if I grew up speaking English. And it's not that I think that English is somehow inherently a better language, it's more that there is a lot more people speaking it. It's kind of like if you are deciding what ope…

Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that. In the several millions we are able to speak and write, there have been lots of languages taking that role. And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help. Besides languages represent culture, not a…

Just out of curiosity, what concept is not expressible in English?

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#49

Post by pjmlp »

Rapzid wrote: post #48
pjmlp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although English is seen as the lingua franca of the 21st century, it wasn't always like that. In the several millions we are able to speak and write, there have been lots of languages taking that role. And even English is not as common as many people think, just traveling around the world will teach people that there are many places where knowing English will be of no help. Besides languages represent culture, not a…

Just out of curiosity, what concept is not expressible in English?

There are lots of examples. Citing just two out of my mind.

Feierabend (German) - expresses the concept you are finished with the work duties for the day and can enjoy your private time with family and friends

Saudade (Portuguese) - a mixture of loneliness, melancholy, sense of loosing part of you feelings, even mixed with a kid of sad joy, while remembering something that is no longer there.

Re: The Death of the Urdu Script

#50

Post by eshvk »

sharjeel wrote: post #41
alieteraz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct about the history. Unfortunately the Abbasid empire came to an end in 1258 AD and Urdu wasn't even around then. I take your point that naskh has been wide-spread. And it is true that it is even in the Indian sub-continent. Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. That doesn't mean th…

> Sindhi, for example, is a naskh based language. Punjabi, which my parents spoke, on the other hand, prefers nastaliq, and regionally the two places are adjacet. Saying that Sindhi is Naskh based language while Punjabi is Nastaleeq based language is like saying English is Arial based language while French is Times New Roman based.

This is rather confusing. IIRC both Arial and Times New Roman let you express all 26 alphabets. Now if Naskh has Nastaleeq have differing number of characters, is this a mere font issue or is there something more fundamental differing between the two?
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