Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

upi.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 123 posts

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#41

Post by vidarh »

jwdunne wrote: post #39
codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

I went to a catholic school and we were still taught evolution, the Big Bang theory, etc. Even had compulsory religious education lessons (sane number per week as maths, english, science) and accompanying GCSE in Catholic Christianity and we were still taught evolution. Many teachers even said that the Old Testament shouldn't be taken literally! It's quite rare I think and I'm surprised there are schools still teachi…

Catholic schools in general are not the problem when it comes to these things.

Pope Pius XII made it quite clear in 1950 that evolution is compatible with catholic doctrine, with certain proviso (such as that they don't accept a material basis for the human soul, and the idea that God is "guiding" evolution). Pope John Paul II further strengthened that substantially in the 90's, by reaffirming Pius XII's statement and adding that scientific discoveries in later years have substantially strengthened the theory.

This has been supported by a long range of conferences and statements supported by the Catholic church. Including outright dismissal of any scientific basis for intelligent design by the Vatican's chief astronomer.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#42

Post by MarcScott »

codeulike wrote: post #7
codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

Also, this is just a clarification of an existing rule that already applied to most state schools, they are just re-stating it for some of the funding edge cases like acadamies and free schools. ref: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/18/secular-triumph-as...

Academies are no longer edge cases. Most Secondary Schools (11-18) are now Academies, and hence no longer have to teach the National Curriculum.

I feel this is a very important clarification, especially considering the number of Academies and Free Schools that are sponsored by religious groups.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#43

Post by walshemj »

codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

Its to cut off some of the fringe "free" (but tax payer funded) schools that Gove was so fond of until recently.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#44

Post by tehwalrus »

jwdunne wrote: post #39
codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

I went to a catholic school and we were still taught evolution, the Big Bang theory, etc. Even had compulsory religious education lessons (sane number per week as maths, english, science) and accompanying GCSE in Catholic Christianity and we were still taught evolution. Many teachers even said that the Old Testament shouldn't be taken literally! It's quite rare I think and I'm surprised there are schools still teachi…

I was also at a Catholic school, same experience.

I would point out that this stuff has only become a problem after Academies and Free Schools were: firstly, allowed to be sponsored/funded by random people and organisations who were allowed to set the "ethos"; and secondly were given license to choose whether or not to teach the National Curriculum[1].

This second point was supposed to be so that English teachers could choose to teach any Shakespeare play to pre-GCSE students, or indeed to substitute in Chaucer or someone else, but seems to have been used to substitute in this creationist nonsense in place of Science. Note that the school in question(in Manchester) also used a textbook that told students that wives were to be subservient to husbands, or something similarly hideous.

I don't know, but I believe this ruling is a reaction to news about a very small number of schools (this Christian one in Manchester, and the furore over the Muslim ones in Birmingham.)

[1] This is my main objection to such institutions - I'd be happy with a scaled back curriculum for them, but this ruling seems to do the job I wanted (to prohibit unscientific nonsense.) DO NOTE that in particular, Catholic schools like mine do not have this freedom in general, unless they've been given Academy or Free School status - Faith Schools are (AFAIK) orthogonal to these properties.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#45

Post by timthorn »

Liesmith wrote: post #24
arethuza wrote: post #20

I wonder how accurate it is to say this is for "all UK schools" as education is pretty heavily devolved in the UK - Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own counterparts to the Department of Education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Education#Devolu... NB As an aside, from a UK perspective the title is a bit confusing as "public schools" are private schools here. "State schools" would prob…

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

The source it quotes is specifically for new Academies and free schools. Those already established are not, I believe, affected.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#46

Post by rwissmann »

codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

There were/are a few, but generally you are right. Creationism is not really a thing in Europe.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#47

Post by grkvlt »

MarcScott wrote: post #42
codeulike wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this is just a clarification of an existing rule that already applied to most state schools, they are just re-stating it for some of the funding edge cases like acadamies and free schools. ref: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/18/secular-triumph-as...

Academies are no longer edge cases. Most Secondary Schools (11-18) are now Academies, and hence no longer have to teach the National Curriculum. I feel this is a very important clarification, especially considering the number of Academies and Free Schools that are sponsored by religious groups.

Although the majority of secondary schools are academies, which I had not realised, they all still have to follow the core national curriculum for maths, english and science subjects.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#48

Post by Naks »

t__r wrote: post #26
philcoders wrote: post #12

I posted this link as a new thread, but i think it is worth posting this also here, http://www.elisoriano.com/blog/new-truths-belie-evolution-ev... Would love to hear what the HN community thought on the arguments.

I just don't understand it. What is it exactly that creationists argue against? What part of the theory of evolution do you disagree with? Is it the fact that there is a thing called DNA? That DNA determines traits of organisms? That DNA gets mixed up as organisms multiply? That some traits are better than others? That this process leads to evolution and natural selection? I'm sure there are, within the field of evol…

I see what the author did there, he used DNA to disprove evolution.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#49

Post by jscheel »

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ridiculous standoff between the two side.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#50

Post by jasonkolb »

jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

One of the problems is the connotations tied up in the word "God". Because there's so much history, baggage, and tradition tied up in that word it makes it difficult to do any sort of real experiments based on it, nevermind using that word in any defined sense in the first place.

But that said, I'm with you. It saddens me to see most scientists completely close their mind to an idea. It flies in the face of the idea of experimentation and discovery. Especially bad when you see people dismissing very valid interpretations of experiments simply because the downstream ramifications make them uncomfortable (the Copenhagen interpretation comes to mind).

Post reply on HN