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Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

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Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#41

Post by tragic »

mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

As someone of "the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk", the problem with my dear comrades is often that they get a little bit too excited about things like Twitter, which leads them to forget that

a) Twitter's job is to make money; carrying your latest 140-char call to arms 'normally' helps, but if in some circumstance it doesn't, they won't

b) Corporations (and actually, at the end of the day, all capitalist enterprises) are by definition reliant on the state, so you would expect them to compromise when the merde hits the fan.

So, colour me unsurprised. Yes, in theory I would like Twitter to stand up to oppressive state regimes. My political beliefs are as they are, in part, because I know they won't.

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#42

Post by austerity »

mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

As long as you are not born into corporations and free to "leave" one and "join" another one they are vastly better than governments.

The problems start when governments and corporations merge.

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#43

Post by alandarev »

kingbaal wrote: post #37
dan_bk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe companies / corporations with enough power to actually challenge the governments of the world isn't such a bad thing after all. We should never expect corporations to take on the role of challenging the government. In "democracies", this is the role of the citizen (whose responsibility is to vote). Corporations, on the other hand, are controlled by people with lots of money whose goal it is to make even more…

Yes, but countries like Russia and Pakistan can hardly be called liberal democracies. If there is no free speech, then it is difficult for citizens of those countries to take action. That is where corporations challenging the government can be helpful. I don't see why we shouldn't expect corporations to take on the role of challenging the government. It is in Twitter's interest for governments not to crack down on fr…

> It is in Twitter's interest for governments not to crack down on free speech

Article shows otherwise, it is not in Twitter's interest to worsen relationships with any government by refusing to comply with requests. Providing some evidence would be helpful.

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#44

Post by estebank »

MikusR wrote: post #10
monochr wrote: post #7

> Last week, Maxim Ksenov, deputy head of Roskomnadzor, took to Russian newspaper Izvestia to complain about an unnamed Twitter account that "published monstrous things" and called for the overthrow of the political regime and the destruction of capitalism. Ksenov threatened to block Twitter entirely unless they "listen to us and periodically remove illegal content." Wait, so calling for the destruction of Capitalism…

There is a saying: Умом Россию не понять (You cannot understand Russia with your mind).

That reminds me of an argentinean comic's line: American: "Can you explain argentinean politics to me?" Pinti: "Noo, no chance. You have it, you endure it, but you can't explain it."

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#45

Post by shrikant »

kalleboo wrote: post #36
rurounijones wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is because China has such a home grown ecosystem for google/twitter etc. alternatives Russia? Not so much I think.

Yandex is the 4th largest search engine in the world and #1 in Russia. I'm pretty sure they have a large local social network as well but the name has slipped my mind.

VKontakte?

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#47

Post by mathattack »

mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

Very good explanation of the paradox.

In theory Twitter could bribe these governments, but that would be morally worse (and legally worse) than caving.

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#48

Post by mindcrime »

maaku wrote: post #38
mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

> Maybe companies / corporations with enough power to actually challenge the governments of the world isn't such a bad thing after all. Or, perhaps it would be better to say "maybe corporations with enough power to challenge the governments of the world" is, at least, not a universally bad thing. Please review the history of the various "East India" companies. I think you will find it an enlightening read.

> Please review the history of the various "East India" companies. I think you will find it an enlightening read.

I have, actually. What's interesting to me is that it really points out the inherent paradox, in that corporations (as we know them today anyway) actually owe their existence to the State. With the East India Company it was a Royal Charter.

Note that I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here to some extent. I'm not necessarily a fan of super-huge corporations with Nation-State level power. In fact, I'm not necessarily a fan of any entity having "Nation-State level power", including Nation-States! :-)

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#49

Post by dragonwriter »

mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

> Maybe companies / corporations with enough power to actually challenge the governments of the world isn't such a bad thing after all.

Corporations are entities who owe their existence to government and can be terminated at a whim by government. If the government chartering a corporation decides it shouldn't continue to exist, it doesn't exist anymore.

This gets obscured a lot by the fact that the same class of people that derive the most benefit from the existence of corporations also have disproportionate power over government, so that this power is very rarely exercised, but that's not because corporations are powerful enough to resist government or even theoretically could be, its because corporations and governments ultimately are run by the same people.

Re: Twitter Steps Down From the Free Speech Party

#50

Post by mindcrime »

dragonwriter wrote: post #49
mindcrime wrote: post #18

It's funny how a lot of people (especially those of the anti-capitalist / left'ish wing ilk) cite cyberpunk literature in which corporations achieve a level of power approaching - or exceeding - that of Nation States... and decry that hypothetical scenario as a horrible and undesirable thing. But in this case, what we see is a situation where we'd like to see Twitter stand up to various world governments... perhaps e…

> Maybe companies / corporations with enough power to actually challenge the governments of the world isn't such a bad thing after all. Corporations are entities who owe their existence to government and can be terminated at a whim by government. If the government chartering a corporation decides it shouldn't continue to exist, it doesn't exist anymore. This gets obscured a lot by the fact that the same class of peop…

Corporations are entities who owe their existence to government and can be terminated at a whim by government.

Yeah that's the way it works today and in Real Life. Clearly the cyberpunk scenario is a hypothetical, but it might not be as far-fetched as it seems.

Whether it's a Good Idea or not is, obviously a big question.

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