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Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

utexas.edu

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Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#41

Post by jebblue »

coldtea wrote: post #14
sreya wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C'mon now, this isn't a political article, let's not mire the discussion in politics irrelevant to the link

An article praising soldiers and the "change" they bring IS political (in the general sense). It's just naively political, it doesn't even stop to consider the consquences of the actions it desribes, except on one side. Soldiers = heroes, or "just honest hardworking people doing a dangerous job", is political in itself. It's pro army, for one. Some people for some reason only consider anti-war statements to be politi…

The enemy is always at the gate, they care not that your heart bleeds for their children; they only care about making you and your children bleed so they can take what you have and destroy who you are and what your children could have become.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#42

Post by PavlovsCat »

Nrsolis wrote: post #25
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

If that is horribly naive, so was Einstein:

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

> 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil.

That is true, but doesn't justify anything and everything. For example, the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador making stuff up about Iraqui soldiers tearing babies out of incubators. "War is a racket" may not be the full story, but has it ever been refuted in a meaningful way? If so, I'd like to see that.

As for Anne Frank, she and others were hunted and murdered by organized, trained killers. To say "but that's different, because those are evil, and we are talking about organized, trained killers who fight evil" doesn't really help, because from the perspective of fanatical followers of Hitler, they were doing the exact same thing, protecting the world from evil and degeneration. So to bring up Anne Frank to justify glorifying the military seems weird at best.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#43

Post by Nrsolis »

spodek wrote: post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank.

And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that you might be missing.

If you have a problem with the US military and their use then I'd suggest you direct that opinion to the President, your Senators, and your Congressman. I looked over your press page and didn't catch anything even remotely connected to the current wars. Nothing. Is that the "leadership" you teach?

The problem isn't the military. It's the civilians that send them over to do a job they aren't willing to do.

You're a part of that problem whether or not you acknowledge it. You earned a degree from an institution that participated in the development of the atomic weapon. You are currently a part of an institution (NYU) that serves as a feeder for the NSA via the Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences. You're a part of the problem. How can you continue to be a part of an academic environment that refuses to acknowledge its contribution to the "corporate interests" that push us into war?

Don't forget that when a nation goes to war, it represents a FAILURE of the civilians of each of those countries to reach a peaceful compromise. It's YOUR failure, not that of the military. The military by itself does not go out and start wars. The bravest soldiers I know wish for NOTHING but peace. Go ahead and ask them. The biggest doves in the whole country work at the Pentagon.

Do yourself a favor and speak to a few veterans this Memorial Day. Like them, I know people who lost their lives during our more than decade-long wars. Ask them if they are regretful or angry. Ask them if they feel like they were taken advantage of. Spend some time getting to know people who wrote this country a blank check to include their own lives if necessary. They volunteered to serve. You didn't. Try and understand what motivates that kind of personal sacrifice. You might learn something.

Enjoy your day off.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#44

Post by jebblue »

facepalm wrote: post #16

I like it (unfortunately I am very far away now from ever being able to be that fit). Leaving aside the uncomfortable notion that it is all for killing people, here is another question I wonder about: what are the survival rates for Navy Seals? Are they better/worse/the same as for normal soldiers? Does all the training help with survival? It would be a shame to go through all this and then be killed in the first hou…

>> It would be a shame to go through all this and then be killed in the first hour of war by some stray bullet?

It would be more of a shame to not have tried, to give up, that's what I think the point of the speech is.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#45

Post by facepalm »

jebblue wrote: post #44
facepalm wrote: post #16

I like it (unfortunately I am very far away now from ever being able to be that fit). Leaving aside the uncomfortable notion that it is all for killing people, here is another question I wonder about: what are the survival rates for Navy Seals? Are they better/worse/the same as for normal soldiers? Does all the training help with survival? It would be a shame to go through all this and then be killed in the first hou…

>> It would be a shame to go through all this and then be killed in the first hour of war by some stray bullet? It would be more of a shame to not have tried, to give up, that's what I think the point of the speech is.

One could try less risky things?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#46

Post by crimsonalucard »

tptacek wrote: post #26
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

If only nobody anywhere in the world was trained to kill other people, our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. You might read Marlantes _What It Is Like To Go To War_. You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic training, not so many of them speak happily about what war forces them to do d…

They are actually obligated by law not to talk about their operations. It's all classified.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#47

Post by jebblue »

jacquesm wrote: post #17
CatheryneN wrote: post #10

The Navy Seals I have known in my life have been the most honest, bravest, and intelligent people I have ever known. I'm grateful people like this exist in the world.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

>> The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others.

The problem is that the enemy wants to kill you, without brave men and women who serve voluntarily, you would not likely have the freedom to hold the idea that it's braver to not fight and give in and give up.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#48

Post by crimsonalucard »

tptacek wrote: post #26
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

If only nobody anywhere in the world was trained to kill other people, our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. You might read Marlantes _What It Is Like To Go To War_. You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic training, not so many of them speak happily about what war forces them to do d…

They are actually obligated by law not to talk about their operations. It's all classified.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#50

Post by icebraining »

Nrsolis wrote: post #43
spodek wrote: post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I thought soldiers had a little more self-respect than describing themselves as dumb tools used by others. No mind of their own, just following the civilians orders?
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