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The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

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Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#41

Post by vinceguidry »

aaronem wrote: post #37
vinceguidry wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to "job-hopper stigma" and any and all other competence-trigger hurdles is simple. Sell the benefit, not the feature. In other words, change the conversation from "who you are" to "what you can do for them". A track record of accomplishments does a lot more to convince a stake-holder that you know what you're doing than a list of previously-held positions. If all you have is a list of previously-held posit…

Well. Conveying competence is, indeed, a valuable skill. But the most it can do for you is to get you a seat at the table. What will you do once you've got the job, and it comes time to play the game? And, while we're at it, why assume that the only possible reward for playing the game is the opportunity to keep playing the game? Isn't it possible that, in playing the game with sufficient skill and artistry, you can…

> What will you do once you've got the job,

Do your job? I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at. If you don't like your work environment, then leave. Just don't take six months to figure that out. But really, you should know whether you would like working there before you take the job. It's not that hard to take a few of their current employees out for coffee and ask them what it's like to work there.

Not every job has the insane level of politicking described. Just find a place where you fit in. It exists.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#42

Post by rdl »

michaelochurch wrote: post #24
naterator wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, the lesson is: If you find yourself in a situation like that, bail out as fast as you can. When we're young we are often not taught—or more importantly we do not have the opportunity—to simply GTFO of the crappy situation we're in (Family, Bullies, etc.). It has tragic consequences both early in life and later on. It's (one of the reasons) why we get school shooters, why people stay at crappy companies when they…

If you bail on every company that's dysfunctional and political (that's about 90%, including of startups) you'll probably get stuck with the job-hopper stigma before you find a good company. Employers get away with horrible conditions and general dysfunction because of the job hopper stigma, but unfortunately, one person leaving bad situations immediately (instead of wasting months to years trying to make lemonade ou…

Virtually all startups are dysfunctional in a variety of new and surprising ways, but I think you can clearly identify the main dysfunctions (or at least, things which won't be addressed) in 50-500 person companies, and figure out how much you care about those factors.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#43

Post by tuxguy »

michaelochurch wrote: post #24
naterator wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, the lesson is: If you find yourself in a situation like that, bail out as fast as you can. When we're young we are often not taught—or more importantly we do not have the opportunity—to simply GTFO of the crappy situation we're in (Family, Bullies, etc.). It has tragic consequences both early in life and later on. It's (one of the reasons) why we get school shooters, why people stay at crappy companies when they…

If you bail on every company that's dysfunctional and political (that's about 90%, including of startups) you'll probably get stuck with the job-hopper stigma before you find a good company. Employers get away with horrible conditions and general dysfunction because of the job hopper stigma, but unfortunately, one person leaving bad situations immediately (instead of wasting months to years trying to make lemonade ou…

this ! awesome articulation bud !

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#44

Post by jorgeleo »

andreasvc wrote: post #32
jorgeleo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what are "those" people?

People who get upset if you touch their code. I think in your other comment you missed the fact that there was already an ongoing debate about this particular part of the code, and it wasn't going anywhere. In such a case a demonstration that the other method is faster is more compelling than more fruitless debate. Speculations on other reasons why the code should've used 2 processes is useless, as it is clear from t…

"People who get upset if you touch their code" which is what i mean when i said that some people treat their code as their baby.

I wrote it before the debate began, it just got posted after it, that is not in my control.

The speculation was to point out that he didn't managed the situation properly, he just dismissed the current implementation as idiotic and proceed to change it. But you missed my point too. Which is why in some scenarios run faster might not be the first priority.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#45

Post by revmoo »

michaelochurch wrote: post #24
naterator wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, the lesson is: If you find yourself in a situation like that, bail out as fast as you can. When we're young we are often not taught—or more importantly we do not have the opportunity—to simply GTFO of the crappy situation we're in (Family, Bullies, etc.). It has tragic consequences both early in life and later on. It's (one of the reasons) why we get school shooters, why people stay at crappy companies when they…

If you bail on every company that's dysfunctional and political (that's about 90%, including of startups) you'll probably get stuck with the job-hopper stigma before you find a good company. Employers get away with horrible conditions and general dysfunction because of the job hopper stigma, but unfortunately, one person leaving bad situations immediately (instead of wasting months to years trying to make lemonade ou…

Job hopper here, four jobs in the last 12 months.

Hasn't been a problem.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#46

Post by baldfat »

vinceguidry wrote: post #41
aaronem wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well. Conveying competence is, indeed, a valuable skill. But the most it can do for you is to get you a seat at the table. What will you do once you've got the job, and it comes time to play the game? And, while we're at it, why assume that the only possible reward for playing the game is the opportunity to keep playing the game? Isn't it possible that, in playing the game with sufficient skill and artistry, you can…

> What will you do once you've got the job, Do your job? I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at. If you don't like your work environment, then leave. Just don't take six months to figure that out. But really, you should know whether you would like working there before you take the job. It's not that hard to take a few of their current employees out for coffee and ask them what it's like to work there…

> really, you should know whether you would like working there before you take the job.

My worst work place had an extreme micro-manager of a president. People were fired after working there 15 years on the spot and others their department was under performing for years and years never were let go.

Final straw: Unannounced layoff of 10%. They fired people at their desk all morning and afternoon and did not have an all company meeting till 3:30 pm. The bonus the job had a loop hole and didn't have to pay unemployment tax. So everyone didn't know they did not qualify for unemployment and were left with 2 weeks severance pay and found out they didn't qualify many weeks later after they were denied their unemployment.

Should have known: This was a place I knew intimately for 5+ years. I was friends with most of the staff. I did have coffee with half a dozen people and well made a 10+ year commitment mentally before taking the job left 6 months afterwards on my 4th year of employment. Now I LOVE my job working for Head Start.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#47

Post by andreasvc »

jorgeleo wrote: post #44
andreasvc wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who get upset if you touch their code. I think in your other comment you missed the fact that there was already an ongoing debate about this particular part of the code, and it wasn't going anywhere. In such a case a demonstration that the other method is faster is more compelling than more fruitless debate. Speculations on other reasons why the code should've used 2 processes is useless, as it is clear from t…

"People who get upset if you touch their code" which is what i mean when i said that some people treat their code as their baby. I wrote it before the debate began, it just got posted after it, that is not in my control. The speculation was to point out that he didn't managed the situation properly, he just dismissed the current implementation as idiotic and proceed to change it. But you missed my point too. Which is…

With "the debate" I referred to what is mentioned in the article of the two departments who disagreed about the best strategy.

I don't quite follow you. In the article it's made quite clear that people wanted the code to run faster because then they could get more work done. Yes there are conceivable scenarios in which faster code is not better, but the article made clear that it wasn't the case, so I think the speculation didn't add anything.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#48

Post by aaronem »

vinceguidry wrote: post #41
aaronem wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well. Conveying competence is, indeed, a valuable skill. But the most it can do for you is to get you a seat at the table. What will you do once you've got the job, and it comes time to play the game? And, while we're at it, why assume that the only possible reward for playing the game is the opportunity to keep playing the game? Isn't it possible that, in playing the game with sufficient skill and artistry, you can…

> What will you do once you've got the job, Do your job? I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at. If you don't like your work environment, then leave. Just don't take six months to figure that out. But really, you should know whether you would like working there before you take the job. It's not that hard to take a few of their current employees out for coffee and ask them what it's like to work there…

Hardly an "insane level of politicking", as you like to put it; in a relatively close parallel early in my career, I cost my contracting firm a moderately lucrative client, and verged closely upon getting us sued, out of the same sort of sheer ignorance, as applied to vulnerability reporting rather than feature improvement.

I mean, sure, it would (possibly) be ideal if everyone in our field simply looked at the technical aspects of everything, without any personal or emotional investment whatsoever. What about your experience on this planet has given you to imagine that it's reasonable to expect any aspect of human life, singly or in the large, to be anywhere near ideal?

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#49

Post by GNUgler »

michaelochurch wrote: post #24
naterator wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, the lesson is: If you find yourself in a situation like that, bail out as fast as you can. When we're young we are often not taught—or more importantly we do not have the opportunity—to simply GTFO of the crappy situation we're in (Family, Bullies, etc.). It has tragic consequences both early in life and later on. It's (one of the reasons) why we get school shooters, why people stay at crappy companies when they…

If you bail on every company that's dysfunctional and political (that's about 90%, including of startups) you'll probably get stuck with the job-hopper stigma before you find a good company. Employers get away with horrible conditions and general dysfunction because of the job hopper stigma, but unfortunately, one person leaving bad situations immediately (instead of wasting months to years trying to make lemonade ou…

I disagree. I work at Google, and I can't imagine getting in trouble for making an unambiguous improvement to someone's code.

There is, of course, some politics. It's just not at the level where people could openly be pissed off just because someone made them look bad by doing better. Politics happens over much more ambiguous things, like what length people from one team should go to to fix bugs affecting another team. These are areas where there are legitimate differences of opinion, so it's only natural that people's biases affect their work.

Re: The Best Programming Advice I Ever Got (2012)

#50

Post by QuantumChaos »

aaronem wrote: post #40
scotty79 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it does point to the fact that the system is not just the technology, but also the people around it People come and go. They don't die when they are sacked. They are absorbed by other companies to do other possibly more awesome stuff. There is no point of delaying progress of software because that might mildly inconvenience some people. If half of the Adobe got sacked over a shitstorm caused by some rogue progr…

(In the following, we will stipulate that your "rogue programmer disrupts Photoshop, resulting in a better product and getting half of Adobe fired" situation is plausible, for the sake of illustration.) The half of Adobe you posit getting sacked wouldn't say it was worth it, though, and from a certain perspective -- namely, their own -- they'd be right. After all, Photoshop is already the unquestioned leader in its f…

I disagree that it is morally wrong to threaten people's livelihoods, or that anything is morally permissible to defend one's own livelihood.

If, by some crazy chance, someone managed to make my job unnecessary, I would just suck it up and get a different job.

I would suggest reading some General Equilibrium theory, which explains why making someone's job unnecessary is actually a good thing overall, even though it might harm that person.

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