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Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

nytimes.com

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Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#41

Post by sliverstorm »

outworlder wrote: post #24

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need: - Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source. - Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable f…

What about range? Hydrogen might be less energy dense than gasoline, but what about compared to batteries?

Range is the #1 crippling factor for EVs to most people I talk to.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#42

Post by neon_electro »

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

> * No charging stations (infrastructure problem)

Pardon me if I don't understand your point there, but you can't really say there aren't charging stations available, can you? I can agree that bringing electric car charging infrastructure to par with gas refueling infrastructure is still a challenge.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#43

Post by wil421 »

outworlder wrote: post #28
wil421 wrote: post #22

Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes? Also, what is the downside to coll…

> Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. Yes, because the whole world has the same reliance on fossil fuels as the US. Homework: what's quicker to replace? A few power stations, or the whole vehicle fleet? Also notice that electric engines a…

>Yes, because the whole world has the same reliance on fossil fuels as the US.

Notice how I said US instead of World. That was done on purpose.

>Long or short term? Electrical vehicles do not care where the power comes from.

Long term: if the state I lived in switched to 50% usage of EVs overnight. How much more Green House emissions would be generated by the power plants? Would it be an overall decrease of GH gasses for my state? I doubt the hydro power is going to help that much.

http://www.georgiapower.com/about-us/media-resources/plant-b...

>If it is from fossil fuels, it is kinda obvious. It is apparently possible to sequester CO2 from the process of extracting hydrogen from natural gas, but I have no idea if it is even required by regulations, or economically viable.

Interesting I didnt realize we had to use natural gasses to get H. Wow even Helium is produced from Natural gas.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#44

Post by sliverstorm »

revelation wrote: post #7

The RAV4 ev is a pure compliance car. It's only sold in California, it's a 3rd party drivetrain and battery bolted onto the frame for a gas guzzler SUV. So of course it's a terrible product. The only thing it excels at is getting Toyota enough ZEV credits. They recently changed the credit scheme, so now Toyota is switching to that: http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...

the frame for a gas guzzler SUV

31mpg highway is what counts for gas guzzler these days?

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#45

Post by dublinben »

sliverstorm wrote: post #41
outworlder wrote: post #24

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need: - Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source. - Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable f…

What about range? Hydrogen might be less energy dense than gasoline, but what about compared to batteries? Range is the #1 crippling factor for EVs to most people I talk to.

Most hydrogen vehicles (of which there aren't really any you can buy) have the same 200-250 mile range of a Model S.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#46

Post by outworlder »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #37
outworlder wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. Yes, because the whole world has the same reliance on fossil fuels as the US. Homework: what's quicker to replace? A few power stations, or the whole vehicle fleet? Also notice that electric engines a…

"Homework: what's quicker to replace? A few power stations, or the whole vehicle fleet?" average vehicle age in the US is 11.4 years.[1] average power plant age in the US is over 30 years.[2] 1: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130806/RETAIL/130809922/av... 2: http://qz.com/61423/coal-fired-power-plants-near-retirement/

Thanks for the data.

More number crunching is required however. See, we stopped producing all gasoline vehicles today, based on your source, it would take 11.4 years in average for the fleet to be replaced, so it would be an obvious win.

But we are not doing that. As this whole EV vehicle discussion proves, it is very difficult to replace the fleet. And the infrastructure.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#47

Post by toomuchtodo »

stonemetal wrote: post #39
toomuchtodo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric vehicles are more efficient well to wheel than gas engines, even if powered by coal plants. Do you want to manage the emissions from one generation source? Or 100K? Also, as the electrical grid becomes more clean, EVs become cleaner. Not so with ICE vehicles.

Actually a study from 2012 shows battery backed EVs getting 34 mpg "on the nation’s dirtiest grid". A good diesel can do much better than that. It isn't so cut and dried as you make it sound.

The share of wind and solar increases every year: http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec7_5.pdf

A diesel vehicle has a service life of at least 200K miles; assuming 12K/miles a year, you're looking at ~16 years of burning petrol.

How much cleaner is the electric grid going to be over the next 16 years as coal plants are shut down due to being unable to meet new emissions guidelines? Electric vehicles future proof the energy required for mobility.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#48

Post by wil421 »

Oculus wrote: post #35
wil421 wrote: post #22

Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes? Also, what is the downside to coll…

In an interview at Ted with Chris Anderson, Elon Musk was asked the same question: CA: Most of American electricity comes from burning fossil fuels. How can an electric car that plugs into that electricity help? EM: Right. There's two elements to that answer. One is that, even if you take the same source fuel and produce power at the power plant and use it to charge electric cars, you're still better off. So if you t…

Thanks! Great to hear it from the Horse's Mouth. I am going to watch that Ted talk.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#49

Post by mikeash »

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

The downsides of hydrogen are that it's less efficient than batteries, it's considerably more expensive than electricity (because it's less efficient, and because you have to pay for additional infrastructure to produce, distribute, and store it), and it's generally not available for purchase.

Give me a Tesla and I can charge it anywhere there's electricity. If there's no dedicated charging station, then I can still charge it from a regular wall socket, albeit slowly. There are also a ton of charging stations around here.

Give me a fuel cell vehicle and I can't refuel it anywhere near here. According to the Department of Energy, there are 11 public hydrogen filling stations in the US:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html

You list "no charging stations" as a con for batteries, but it's really not bad at all, and the hydrogen situation is vastly worse, and I don't see it getting better with any kind of speed.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#50

Post by outworlder »

IanDrake wrote: post #40
cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

>Hydrogen on the other hand doesn't require any rare elements Don't fuel cells need platinum?

Currently they do, they might not in the future. The best commercially available battery tech requires lithium, it might not in the future.
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