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I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

blog.sethladd.com

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Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#41

Post by grifpete »

supporting wrote: post #12

It's a little bit sad that Google pays people to have their entire job be to astroturf for Dart with blog posts like this one. Being a "developer advocate" is one thing, writing official documentation, answering questions on forums, whatever — but "I ported a JavaScript app to Dart. Here's what I learned." Seriously? More like "I'm on the Dart Team. I ported a JavaScript app to Dart because it's my job." Open source…

I don't get your point. If a guy is going to advocate for anything presumably it is better if the guy has some practical experience and what is wrong with him sharing that experience? Do you honestly imagine that anyone reading this piece was in any way deceived or confused by his role at Google? It's not like he hid it.

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#42

Post by grifpete »

vdaniuk wrote: post #24
plorkyeran wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does he mention that other than the sidebar? I completely missed the fact that he works for Google while reading the article since it's never mentioned in the body of the article itself, and the article is written as if he's completely new to Dart and trying it out for fun. If he's not trying to present that image, then it's a really awful writing style.

Do you imply a conflict of interest? If you do, please state it explicitly. Your criticism as it stands doesn't add to the discussion and one could say that your writing style is really awful, too. Sidebar is not an unusual place to place author bio and it is definitely enough for me.

I agree. This is getting your panties in a twist because a writer hasn't spelt out his putative conflict of interest in a way that conforms to your norms, when it is certainly plain enough for many readers (I had no problem at all figuring it out and wasn't at all offended by it).

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#43

Post by grifpete »

akbar501 wrote: post #40
arrty88 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does Google Web Toolkit which is what AWS's admin console uses. Why would I use Dart over Google backed GWT? I'm also torn between using a pure javascript framework like Google Angular or a hybrid such as GWT or Dart. There are seriously too many options and no one has a clue what the long term support for any of these will be.

GWT is ideal for Java developers who prefer to write in Java, but have to deploy in JavaScript. Pure JavaScript (or a JavaScript framework) are ideal if you either know JavaScript, or are ok learning the language. IMO, learning JavaScript is a good bet since it is the language of the web. Basically, your web apps will either be written in JS or compile to JS, so knowing the language is worth it. Dart would be selecte…

Learning to program in Javascript is like programming in assembler. That may be unavoidable when there are no high level languages, or when those languages and toolsets are immature. But there are serious experts (and people with a lot of experience with very large js programs) who don't see js as the solution. "Goaded by Meijer as to whether it is possible to write big programs in JavaScript, Hejlsberg replied, €œYes, you can, but you can€™t maintain them," much to the delight of the crowd that featured several prominent language and tools designers. €œI think there are some unmet needs there,€ Hejlsberg added. Bracha immediately piped in saying, €œThat€™s part of why we€™re doing Dart. You can write them [large programs in JavaScript]; it€™s terribly hard and afterward you€™ll be punished.€ - See more at: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Is-it-Time-...

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#44

Post by pjmlp »

rdtsc wrote: post #34
adamkochanowicz wrote: post #11

I'm concerned that, however good Dart may be, the fact that zero browsers intend on supporting it natively (and I understand they non-natively support it via js compilation), the popularity is likely to escalate. Wasn't the idea of Dart to replace JavaScript as the "lingua franca"? And we still have to run Chromium to support it natively?

There is nothing preventing Google from release Dartium (Chrome with DartVM). In the meantime it compiles to js and is not the first thing to do so. In fact I think Google should release Google Chrome with Dart VM and then accelerate a few of their apps (oh look much better Google maps!), before you know it, Opera will get it as well.

It is marked as "in development" on the Chrome dashboard.

http://www.chromestatus.com/features

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#45

Post by Nemcue »

Sure — I guess it's nice that Dart comes with a lot of useful things built in.

Outside of Dart we already have pretty good solutions for Promises (with Promise A+ compatible libs; Q, RSVP etc) and modules (ES6 modules, Require etc), which /kind of/ makes those points moot.

Which leaves type checking and autocompletion as the big benefit. Which are nice, I guess.

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#46

Post by sethladd »

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #35
jlongster wrote: post #16

I somewhat skimmed the article, but it doesn't mention the fact the JavaScript is on the verge of getting modules. Unless you really love Dart, you can fix most of these problems by using something like the ES6 module transpiler: https://github.com/square/es6-module-transpiler . Even better, in then next few years JavaScript will start adapting these natively, solving many of the organizational issues laid out in thi…

+1, and also, safest place to use es6 right now is on the API side. No need to wait or use the transpiler.

Can you be more specific about what "API side" means?

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#47

Post by sethladd »

supporting wrote: post #12

It's a little bit sad that Google pays people to have their entire job be to astroturf for Dart with blog posts like this one. Being a "developer advocate" is one thing, writing official documentation, answering questions on forums, whatever — but "I ported a JavaScript app to Dart. Here's what I learned." Seriously? More like "I'm on the Dart Team. I ported a JavaScript app to Dart because it's my job." Open source…

The header on the blog says "Dart DevRel @ Google", and the sidebar says "Seth is a web engineer and Chrome Developer Advocate". I apologize it wasn't obvious enough. I agree, it should be obvious that I work at Google.

This particular project was done on my own time, a little bit while at work, and a lot at nights and weekends.

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#48

Post by sethladd »

jamra wrote: post #36
sethladd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I picked the Music DNA app not because it makes Dart look good, but because I never really used Web Audio API before and the app looked good. If I really wanted to cherry pick, I wouldn't have picked an app that uses a third-party JS lib. The JS interop in Dart is sufficient, and it works, but obviously is not as seamless as it is in JavaScript. JS interop in JS is better than it is in Dart, and I didn't hide that. I…

He's not saying that you have false conclusions. He's saying that you have false pretenses. It appears as though you are new to the language, porting over some javascript code. The truth is, you are not new to Dart at all. I believe he feels duped by you. My personal problems with your post is that you go far too deep into the guts of how Dart works. 90% of your blog post is the internals of Dart as if you are writin…

Thank you for calm and reasoned explanation. It's easy to address. Aaaaand, done, I added a little note at the top.

re: your personal feedback, thanks very much. The Music DNA app is pretty simple, there's not a lot of specific business logic there. It is a good example of Web Audio API, async, code organization, drag and drop. Are you saying you'd like a more detailed explanation of those APIs? I guess I assumed that web developers would read the post.

Open to ideas.

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#49

Post by sethladd »

plorkyeran wrote: post #38
vdaniuk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you imply a conflict of interest? If you do, please state it explicitly. Your criticism as it stands doesn't add to the discussion and one could say that your writing style is really awful, too. Sidebar is not an unusual place to place author bio and it is definitely enough for me.

Okay, I'll state it explicitly: I feel that the article is actively deceptive about the background of the author, which makes me distrust the content of the article as well. The sidebar with his background is not visible on the first page of the content, so I would have had to interrupt reading the article to read it. I say that it is a bad writing style because I am assuming good faith. I assume that the positioning…

The header of the layout says "Dart DevRel @ Google,", as you mention the sidebar has a bio (which I will move up), and I just added a note to the beginning of the article. Thank you for the feedback, and thanks for reading.

Re: I ported a JavaScript app to Dart

#50

Post by pessimizer »

rdtsc wrote: post #26
supporting wrote: post #12

It's a little bit sad that Google pays people to have their entire job be to astroturf for Dart with blog posts like this one. Being a "developer advocate" is one thing, writing official documentation, answering questions on forums, whatever — but "I ported a JavaScript app to Dart. Here's what I learned." Seriously? More like "I'm on the Dart Team. I ported a JavaScript app to Dart because it's my job." Open source…

All I heard it from your post is a lot vitriol and hatred. I don't know who Seth Ladd is. I looked at the page and it skipped over his title and went straight to the text. I don't care if Google paid him, or if the works for Google, or if he wrote because he was forced to at gunpoint by Colombian mafia. It doesn't matter. It is a good article and I enjoyed reading it. It is very well done, it shows how the IDE works,…

>proof that he was forced to do this against his will by Google

strawman alert.

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