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I’m a Man and I Write Code

wewritecode.com

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Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#41

Post by webmaven »

metaphorm wrote: post #20
roywiggins wrote: post #16

With a long history of having 30+ speakers at our events, the idea was proposed that we enforce a 1:1 ratio of men and women for our speakers. Yes, finding 15 qualified women is basically impossible, so why even try? /s

you missed the point. the problem is more like this: 1. Find the 30 best speakers that are available and can speak to a relevant/interesting topic to your event. 2. How many of them are men? How many are women? 3. If there are less than 15 women then it means that whatever metric you used to pick "best" didn't select a 1:1 ratio. Now you have to decide which do you consider more important, your "best" metric or 1:1 g…

3a. If there are less than 15 women then it means that whatever metric you used to pick "best" may have an unconscious or unexamined bias. Now you have to decide which do you consider more important, sticking with your "best" metric or trying to find and eliminate that bias?

4a. If sticking with your "best" metric is more important, then you are now deliberately excluding female candidates for reasons that are fundamentally unfair to them.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#42

Post by fennecfoxen »

icebraining wrote: post #27
nonrecursive wrote: post #22

This post is mostly an exposition of the author's strongly-held opinion that A) technology communities are all currently meritocracies, which is good; B) self-imposed quotas will result in something that isn't a meritocracy, which is bad; and C) organizations which strive to help minorities (women who code etc) are bad because they try to help minorities. I'm only going to respond to C because it's the most ludicrous…

The author says that these organizations give the message that "These people are different from the majority so we need to treat them differently." Well, yes. What's wrong with that? The author doesn't explain. I think it's pretty obvious - he thinks that those groups are reinforcing the idea that they're trying to dispel. From his POV, if you don't want people treated as different, it makes no sense for you to do th…

"The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." -- Chief Justice John Roberts, Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1

... which isn't to say that this measure (or, in the field of technology, an analogous one) is sufficient on its own, but that it is necessary.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#43

Post by CocaKoala »

icebraining wrote: post #27
nonrecursive wrote: post #22

This post is mostly an exposition of the author's strongly-held opinion that A) technology communities are all currently meritocracies, which is good; B) self-imposed quotas will result in something that isn't a meritocracy, which is bad; and C) organizations which strive to help minorities (women who code etc) are bad because they try to help minorities. I'm only going to respond to C because it's the most ludicrous…

The author says that these organizations give the message that "These people are different from the majority so we need to treat them differently." Well, yes. What's wrong with that? The author doesn't explain. I think it's pretty obvious - he thinks that those groups are reinforcing the idea that they're trying to dispel. From his POV, if you don't want people treated as different, it makes no sense for you to do th…

But they ARE different, and trying to pretend they're not doesn't make sense? Off the top of my head, one clear difference I can think of between the minority groups who don't have a strong presence in the tech industry and white males who do is that the minority groups don't have a strong difference in the tech industry. So if that's a difference you want to resolve, I'm not sure how creating groups to help encourage the minority groups to enter the tech industry is bad.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#44

Post by tomp »

rmc wrote: post #7

There are several definitions of sexism, one is essentially "taking someone's sex or gender into account when making a decision". This appears to be the definition the author is using by calling quotas "sexist". It's a very simple, easy to understand, easy to identify definition. It also means that in many cases (e.g. choosing who shoul speak at a tech conference), men can be the victims of sexism. There's another de…

In general I agree with what you're saying and I think that your second definition of sexism is very insightful and something everybody should consider and think about (even if they ultimately find they cannot support this definition).

However, I would like to point out that whether being "male" makes you play life on easier difficulty than "female" depends to a large extent to how you weight different outcomes of the game. While it's probably still true that being male makes it easier to earn more money (especially now, when all the geeky, previously unpopular, mostly male programmers cashed in), but it also makes it easier to be homeless and to die sooner (homicide/suicide).

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#45

Post by nonrecursive »

icebraining wrote: post #27
nonrecursive wrote: post #22

This post is mostly an exposition of the author's strongly-held opinion that A) technology communities are all currently meritocracies, which is good; B) self-imposed quotas will result in something that isn't a meritocracy, which is bad; and C) organizations which strive to help minorities (women who code etc) are bad because they try to help minorities. I'm only going to respond to C because it's the most ludicrous…

The author says that these organizations give the message that "These people are different from the majority so we need to treat them differently." Well, yes. What's wrong with that? The author doesn't explain. I think it's pretty obvious - he thinks that those groups are reinforcing the idea that they're trying to dispel. From his POV, if you don't want people treated as different, it makes no sense for you to do th…

In that case I think he's wrong. Being "different" and being "less than" are two different things, but it sounds like he's equating them, as if by going out of your way to help under-represented groups you're implying that they're under-represented because they're inferior.

To clarify what I meant in my earlier post: Yes, they are different, by definition - one group is the majority, the others are minorities. That doesn't mean that they're different in terms of intelligence, ability, or worth. Treating minorities "differently", otherwise known as "helping", is logical. It recognizes that the majority already gets "special treatment", because those in the majority are already looking after each others' interests.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#46

Post by MarcScott »

I agree that this is an issue that is best tackled by early education.

In the UK Computer Science is begin taught to all students from Year 1, as of September.

We've currently been delivering CS at my school for only a year, but I'm pleased that a third of the students that have _chosen_ to study GCSE CS next year are female students. This ratio will no doubt continue to increase, as students have a greater exposure to CS in earlier years.

I have little doubt that the gender imbalance amongst developers and academics in the field will decrease as time goes on, and hopefully this will cease to be an issue in the future.

Incidentally, as I write this comment I have three 11 yo students working in my room, all coding in JavaScript, voluntarily, after school. They are all female.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#47

Post by pincubator »

colinbartlett wrote: post #14
pincubator wrote: post #10

>My wife is a nurse. A female dominated field. I also own a construction company. A male dominated field. In neither field would you see a company or an organization suggest hiring one gender over the other to satisfy a ratio. The only difference between men and women is their physical power. Yes, construction company is a male dominated field, because men are more suitable for doing that kind of job because of their…

> The only difference between men and women is their physical power. Surely you can't be serious.

Surely, I am serious. I can't see any other difference that can affect the choice of career path between men and women.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#48

Post by viggity »

I'm on the board of the group he is talking about. I'd like to share my thoughts that I sent to the group after the 1:1 proposal. I did some light editing for clarity and to redact names.

----------------------------

Dear ,

No, because then we'll be judging speakers on a trait that has nothing to do with their coding or presentation skills. I'm not going discriminate against a male simply because he is a male for the same reason I wont discriminate against a female because she is female. Equality of opportunity is what I care about, not equality of results, and right now we have an open call for speakers.

, where do we draw the line? Should i not pick an Asian guy because they're over represented in the tech community (and our speaker selection)? "sorry and , we know you've spoken at all 14 of our events but can only pick one of you since you hail from Asia". Do we need a quota for blacks and hispanics? Do we use their representation nationwide or just in when we set the quota? Do you want to look the face when you announce the quota, so he gets to wonder if he was picked because he gives good presentations or if he was picked because he's brown? Should we put sexual preference on the speaker submission form? I mean, LGBT makes up 6% of the country, right? We should really have at least one. I'm friends with a transgendered female, she is super bright and I've been encouraging her to present. Now she'll get to wonder if she was just picked to fill a quota instead of thinking that I wanted to hear her speak. You tell me if she counts as a female for your quota, I mean she has more testosterone than your average woman and she was born a male. There's a lot of talk about age discrimination, should we reserve 20% for speakers over 60? If an Hispanic 63 year old woman asks to speak, does she fill three quotas at once, or is it only one?

In short, no, I think this is a horrible, sexist idea. If on the other hand you want to have a panel discussion on gender in tech, I'm cool with that. I'd also be willing to reserve X% (20?) of slots for first time speakers. And if someone wanted to give a presentation on how programmers gender actually effects their ability to write an algorithm, I guarantee you I will pick them (regardless if it is a male or female presenter). If you'd like to go on a campaign to encourage certain genders, races, ages to submit a session, feel free, but as long as I'm in charge of speaker selections I'll continue to pick solely on the session abstract and the experience of the speaker.

I'd also like to add that I like diversity of thought and experience. I think we've done an excellent job getting lots of different technologies in front of our attendees and would like to continue doing so.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#49

Post by e_modad »

zysh wrote: post #33

I just want to throw my two cents in as a (very) young woman in college that aspires to become a Software Engineer. I'm very glad that groups like PyLadies and Women Who Code exist. Unfortunately I'm pretty terrified of meeting men that are significantly more experienced than myself in the industry when it comes to software. I'm terrified of coming off as clueless or air headed. On top of that, the men I have met in…

Thanks for putting this out there. I'm not really sure what the solution is but one thing is for sure: I would never want any of my girl coder friends to feel isolated or threatened.

Every single male coder I know would look down on that male peer you mentioned. I don't know if it makes you feel any better but the vast majority of the men I know want women in this field to succeed and feel happy doing what they love.

Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code

#50

Post by [deleted] »

icebraining wrote: post #40
majika wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it's alright to actually run "no boys allowed" schools, dinners and programs in tech, but it's not OK to ironically put a "no girls allowed" image in a blog post? Do you realize that this double standard is harmful for everyone?

But is it? I mean, empirically?

[deleted]
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