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In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

sarajchipps.com

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Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#41

Post by AnimalMuppet »

gordonguthrie wrote: post #37
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a false dichotomy. Don't attract discrimination by the opposite discrimination. Attract discrimination primarily by exposing and removing the discrimination . Also (in this example) try to nurture more talented females, growing their skills to the point that they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males.

> so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?

Ah, I see what you mean.

But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality.

So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fix actual discrimination in hiring organizations, and we need to address the supply of qualified candidates. (I was not trying to say that there are currently no qualified female candidates, but I see how that line could be taken that way.)

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#42

Post by lobotryas »

lobotryas wrote: post #40

I'm glad that Sarah is being so open on this topic because, after reading the entire article, I remain unconvinced. Please allow me to share my experience. I'm part of a small multicultural team of 8 engineers, 4 of which are women. The team is a professional outfit, makes consistent effort to remain inclusive, and ensures that everyone has a comfortable way of voicing their opinions, thoughts and other intellectual…

As an addendum, I'd like to see more discussion regarding cultural diversity in Engineering Teams. Our R&D team of 150+ people has only

* 1 African-American male

* 2 Latino-American males

That seems really worrying, especially given the demographics of California.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#43

Post by lobotryas »

ewoodrich wrote: post #32
buckbova wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on who you ask. Some people are advocating just that. https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 >Get women hired. Make your workplace give a fuck about hiring diverse teams. You are in a wonderful position to advocate and agitate for more diversity in your workplace. Draw attention to your company’s demographics internally, bring in speakers on building team diversity, start a committee dedicated to…

>Oh and make sure this doesn’t just end up in a position where you just hire a few white women and call it a day. Not good enough. This doesn't sound like they are encouraging employers to hire less qualified candidates just to check off boxes.

However that does sometimes become the end result due to a shortage of good, diverse candidates. In the end you have "hire anyone who meets these demographic criteria just so we can check diversity off our list and call ourselves 'inclusive'".

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#44

Post by Domenic_S »

dbloom wrote: post #25
jasallen wrote: post #6

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Jeff was replying to Shanley with what he considered to be a better approach to the topic. I think the lack of attribution was an oversight, and I don't think anything in Jeff's post "plagiarizes" or comes close to it. I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic.

> I also find Shanley's demeanor extremely rude, off-putting and counterproductive to a discussion on any topic. Linus Torvalds is even worse according to your definition of bad demeanor. Would you say that this helps or hurts his advocacy?

Hurts. Same with Steve Jobs. But those fellow are mostly revered despite their attitude, because of their accomplishments. I'd find it hard to believe anyone who claims that a bad demeanor helps one's cause, male or female.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#45

Post by gordonguthrie »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41
gordonguthrie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?

Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fi…

Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#46

Post by SheepSlapper »

zorpner wrote: post #36
SheepSlapper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I don't like either piece (cards on the table, I don't really care for Sara's either). Jeff thinks we shouldn't drink at work functions, because men + women + booze = sexism or something, and Shanley wants us to reverse the (perceived) discrimination with some sort of affirmative action for ladies. I was just pointing out that the two pieces have the same topic and the same 4 word title (because Jeff…

After talking with a couple of the commenters in question, it sounds like some people are using "plagiarism" not to mean that he specifically stole words from her post verbatim, but to mean that he "rewrote" what she wrote without giving her credit. It's not how I'd use the term, but I think that's what people are getting at with it. It's gotten a little weirder now, since Atwood is communicating with people about it…

He used the same title and wrote on the same topic. That's where the similarities end. Shanley says:

* Get company funds diverted to the cause

* Start a feminist bookclub for men

* Get better management training in your company

* Get women hired

* Don’t speak at events or on panels where women speakers aren’t represented

* Encourage diversity at conferences you go to

Jeff says:

* Abide by the Hacker School Rules

* Really listen

* If you see bad behavior from other men, speak up

* Don't attempt romantic relationships at work

* No drinking at work events

The only place they overlap in their respective messages is each of them saying "be the change you want to see in the world" in their own way. So I still don't get the plagiarism claims, even with the warped definition.

As for Atwood saying that he didn't link to her piece because it was too negative: There are two very different tones to take when writing about this (or most any) topic. Jeff, in his piece, acknowledges the issue and maintains a pretty even keel. Yes, it's a problem, here's how I think we can fix it. On the other side, Shanley is writing in a very aggressive tone towards men. It feels less like she's trying to affect social change, and more like she's shouting at passing men from the top of a soapbox.

Truth is, if I were writing a piece that was taking a subtle jab at Shanley's writing, I wouldn't link to her either. If I felt like she was trying to contribute seriously to the issue, then I would in a heartbeat, but that's not how her piece reads.

Edit regarding your edit: I agree with some of the issues the author had about Atwood's take on things, though I think claiming that Jeff not linking to Shanley is yet another way men dismiss or marginalize is grasping at straws. Imaginary straws.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#47

Post by offbrand »

lobotryas wrote: post #42
lobotryas wrote: post #40

I'm glad that Sarah is being so open on this topic because, after reading the entire article, I remain unconvinced. Please allow me to share my experience. I'm part of a small multicultural team of 8 engineers, 4 of which are women. The team is a professional outfit, makes consistent effort to remain inclusive, and ensures that everyone has a comfortable way of voicing their opinions, thoughts and other intellectual…

As an addendum, I'd like to see more discussion regarding cultural diversity in Engineering Teams. Our R&D team of 150+ people has only * 1 African-American male * 2 Latino-American males That seems really worrying, especially given the demographics of California.

You really contradict yourself here. Why is it worrying that your cultural diversity isn't representative of the demographics of California and yet it doesn't worry you that women are under represented?

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#48

Post by xrctl »

gordonguthrie wrote: post #45
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fi…

Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.

It is quite common for Christians in the United States claim that they are oppressed [1]. Shouldn't we try to fix these problems too?

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-pers...

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#49

Post by gordonguthrie »

zorpner wrote: post #15
SheepSlapper wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I find humorous, because I just finished reading both, and the only thing the two articles share are their titles. Shanley's article is written with an actively aggressive tone towards men, while Jeff's seems much more reasoned and thought out. And both articles answer the question "what can men do" differently. So why the hullabaloo?

If the two articles existed in isolation, I would be inclined to agree (though I think Jeff's is actually pretty poorly thought out -- as the man himself said: https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/273551344533639169 ). But there's a clear, obvious chain of events here that starts with Jeff reading Shanley's post, criticizing it, then writing his own version with the same title without acknowledging why.

And deleting his (patronising) tweets about it.

Re: In which I answer all of the questions (2012)

#50

Post by lobotryas »

offbrand wrote: post #47
lobotryas wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an addendum, I'd like to see more discussion regarding cultural diversity in Engineering Teams. Our R&D team of 150+ people has only * 1 African-American male * 2 Latino-American males That seems really worrying, especially given the demographics of California.

You really contradict yourself here. Why is it worrying that your cultural diversity isn't representative of the demographics of California and yet it doesn't worry you that women are under represented?

Because we're going to have a discussion on diversity regardless of my personal convictions and I would prefer that we focus on being more inclusive of minorities and spreading "hacker culture" to low income neighborhoods (ie: people for whom the barrier to entry may be as high as simply being unable to afford a computer to code on).
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