Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich" • Hacker News Board

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#41

Post by jhancock » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:06 PM UTC

dschobel wrote: post #30

jhancock wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a legal mandate to make as much profit for their shareholders as possible". I have never seen a law that says such a thing. Shareholders get to vote respective to the rights of their share class...That's about it. Other than embezzlement and other forms of fraud, a company can do as they like.

for-profit corporations exist for the sole purpose of advancing their shareholder's interest (profit). period. end of story. check out any company's s-1 filing. here's google's for reference: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/pdf/ne/2004/google.pdf just search through that for the phrase 'shareholder'. here's just a small taste: We will make decisions on business fundamentals... and always with the long term welfare of our…

I"m sorry, you still haven't pointed out any laws on this issue. Your references are to corporate and cultural hyperbole, which do sometimes have weight in a courtroom.

As to Yahoo or anyone else getting sued by shareholders, sure you can sue. The courts may take into account actions of corporate execs and decide they haven't been listening to the shareholders. But it really depends on what the shareholder rights are in any given corp. Was Yahoo required to put a buyout offer to a shareholder vote, but did not? If so, the shareholders have legal standing. But its not the reason you state: "exist for the sole purpose of advancing their shareholder's interest (profit). period. end of story."

In fact, I'll wager you cannot find such a clear law that supports your position.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#42

Post by solutionyogi » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:07 PM UTC

321abc wrote: post #33

forinti wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always amazes me how americans have the smallest social safety net of the developed world and are always blaming the unfortunate for eating up their taxes. You also work more hours than workers in other developed nations and yet still can't stop going on and on about lazy people.

Not to mention the daily stories of Wall St hustlers stealing billions, trillions of taxpayer dollars being given away as welfare to corporations (which promptly pay out billions in bonuses) and trillions pissed away on murdering tens of thousands of people in other countries, but people are all up in arms when some single mother gets a $100 in food stamps, or a Mexican risks death in the desert to come mow your lawn…

The problem here is of the government. Government decided to intervene and give those billions to the corporations. If government and bureaucrats didn't have the power to give away taxpayer's money, we won't have this problem. And that's why we libertarians talk about 'limited government.' Remember, 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.'

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#43

Post by jonallanharper » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:08 PM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #32

jonallanharper wrote: post #14

"[when that tax bill comes your thought should be]... a recognition that in paying your taxes you are helping to support millions of Americans that are not as fortunate as you." Right, so I bust my ass in school, non-paid internships, contracting as much as possible, and 50 hour work weeks on my startup... and the reason I'm making money is b/c I'm more "fortunate" than the slob who is still playing video games in co…

Wow that's cold. It's a bit ugly that you can loop everyone that can't afford healthcare, mental health issues or drug addiction into a single bucket and dispose of them. Those who can afford to spend 6 years in college playing video games, rarely are the ones who are doing it on the gov't dime. Its the kids that grow up in crappy underprivileged neighborhoods with poor school systems and no guidance are the ones tha…

And, you sir, live in a false reality.

I bet you'd love to tell us how socialism would work if we "just gave it a chance." Let me guess... it "hasn't been implemented properly" yet right?

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#44

Post by Locke1689 » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:09 PM UTC

jhancock wrote: post #5

"Make a boatload of money. Pay your taxes. Lots of taxes. Hire people. Train people. Pay people. Spend money on rent, equipment, services. Pay more taxes." Don't most wealthy people hire lawyers and lobbyists to help them not pay taxes? Don't they also move jobs overseas to reduce how much they pay to their own economy? Cuban seems to be living in a dreamworld.

To be sure, this happens, but I'm not sure I'd accuse him of living in a dreamworld...

For one, he's not saying you can't go through hoops to avoid paying taxes, he's saying don't do it. Of course, if we wanted to we could legislate to prevent this exploitation of tax law, although I'm not sure how far that would get without a considerable social realignment.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#45

Post by mcslee » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:13 PM UTC

dschobel wrote: post #19

zackattack wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. Consciousness is a gift through fortune. Through consciousness, you eventually come to a realization that you should work hard and endeavor to become successful. The less fortunate never reach such a level of consciousness.

I agree that both are necessary but insufficient conditions independently but I've always been irked by the fact that the hard work/motivation part is always immediately dropped when you talk about average working stiffs. It's like some bizarre fear that by admitting that some people are simply feckless and/or unmotivated you risk marginalizing everyone hasn't "made it" whereas in reality incentives are a huge part o…

Your point is well taken that it's easy to treat fortune differently in different situations. Hard workers that don't make it are "just unfortunate." Lazy people that win the lottery are "just fortunate." Hard workers that make it "earned it."

However, I think randomness (i.e. "fortune") generally plays a much larger role in all of our lives than we care to admit. The American obsession with hard work and merit fuels this misconception. Our brains are also somewhat intrinsically hardwired to intuit simple causes and effects, even when none truly exist.

If you're interested in the topic, I highly recommend reading "The Drunkard's Walk" by Leonard Mlodinow. http://www.amazon.com/Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules-Vintag...

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#46

Post by solutionyogi » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:18 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #25

jonallanharper wrote: post #14

"[when that tax bill comes your thought should be]... a recognition that in paying your taxes you are helping to support millions of Americans that are not as fortunate as you." Right, so I bust my ass in school, non-paid internships, contracting as much as possible, and 50 hour work weeks on my startup... and the reason I'm making money is b/c I'm more "fortunate" than the slob who is still playing video games in co…

Without the infrastructure around you, you would not have the opportunity to succeed. Much of this infrastructure is public - paid for and run by the government. Taxes are not the government stealing your income from you. It's the government pooling resources so the society we live in can continue to function. There's more to success than making wise choices. It's also have the ability to even have that choice becaus…

Wow, HN folks sure have a 'socialist' slant. Anyway, do you think you are getting your money's worth when you give away 30% of your income in taxes? Do you know how much of the tax money is spent of infrastructure? Look at this chart of US budget spending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY...

65% of taxpayer's money went to defense/social security/medicare-medicaid. Think about it for a moment. 65% of the money spent had nothing to do with infrastructure. Also, do you think that government is spending all the taxpayer's money carefully OR you think that government wastes tremendous waste amount of money? There are 3 ways to spend money:

1. Your own money on yourself. [You are very careful about getting your money's worth and you do spend generously] 2. Your own money on someone else. [You are very careful about getting your money's worth but you spend as little as you can] 3. Someone else's money on someone else. [Let's burn some money to heat up the place!]

Government falls in 3rd category and it's no surprise that there is tremendous waste.

That's why libertarians are advocating 'limited government', 'minimal taxes' so that people (you and me) can keep their hard earned money for themselves and spend as they see fit.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#47

Post by scott_s » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:21 PM UTC

jonallanharper wrote: post #43

mikeryan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that's cold. It's a bit ugly that you can loop everyone that can't afford healthcare, mental health issues or drug addiction into a single bucket and dispose of them. Those who can afford to spend 6 years in college playing video games, rarely are the ones who are doing it on the gov't dime. Its the kids that grow up in crappy underprivileged neighborhoods with poor school systems and no guidance are the ones tha…

And, you sir, live in a false reality. I bet you'd love to tell us how socialism would work if we "just gave it a chance." Let me guess... it "hasn't been implemented properly" yet right?

Socialism isn't a scalar. We have government run/funded military, police, fire fighters, grade schools, universities, postal service, space program, welfare, pensions in the form of Social Security and health care for the poor and elderly through Medicaid and Medicare. Many European countries are more on the socialist side of the spectrum than we are.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#48

Post by jonallanharper » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:25 PM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #35

jonallanharper wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've highlighted one of the most important fallacies in the modern liberal's mindset, in my opinion... PG touches on this: "The Pie Fallacy" in http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html My 2 cents on it: Wealth is created. Currency is a limited resource that represents that wealth. The value of a single unit of currency is increased every time more real wealth is created. Wealth is created when goods or services that peopl…

You've highlighted one of the most important fallacies in the modern liberal's mindset, in my opinion... Completely unnecessary partisan drivel. The man asked a question and you made a useless generalization that shows, more than anything else, that you don't understand your opposition's socioeconomic philosophy. However, you are correct, currency is simply a tangible representation of value. Wealth is not a zero-sum…

And, you are correct; I don't understand the socialist philosophy, it's incredibly illogical.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#49

Post by solutionyogi » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:28 PM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #32

jonallanharper wrote: post #14

"[when that tax bill comes your thought should be]... a recognition that in paying your taxes you are helping to support millions of Americans that are not as fortunate as you." Right, so I bust my ass in school, non-paid internships, contracting as much as possible, and 50 hour work weeks on my startup... and the reason I'm making money is b/c I'm more "fortunate" than the slob who is still playing video games in co…

Wow that's cold. It's a bit ugly that you can loop everyone that can't afford healthcare, mental health issues or drug addiction into a single bucket and dispose of them. Those who can afford to spend 6 years in college playing video games, rarely are the ones who are doing it on the gov't dime. Its the kids that grow up in crappy underprivileged neighborhoods with poor school systems and no guidance are the ones tha…

Here's the problem with your argument. How are you going to make sure that government helps those poor people (the one you identified in your post) and not others? How are you going to make sure there is no waste/minimal waste? How are you going to make sure that lobbyists/corporations won't lobby the government to get this additional taxpayer's money and use it for their own instead of helping the poor? Where is the accountability? Show me one government program which has achieved its stated goal without wasting huge amount of taxpayer's money.

Let me give you an example. NY State auditors recovered around 270 million dollars in Medicare fraud/waste between Oct 07 to Mar 08 (6 months). This is only one state, think about the amount of fraud/waste happening in other states. In fact, they plan to spend 90 million dollars to prevent this fraud/waste! Why give government money so that they can waste it and then let them spend more money so that they can prevent the waste?

Link: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/state-recovers-269m-in-medicai...

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#50

Post by scott_s » Thu, Aug 13, 2009, 11:28 PM UTC

solutionyogi wrote: post #46

scott_s wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the infrastructure around you, you would not have the opportunity to succeed. Much of this infrastructure is public - paid for and run by the government. Taxes are not the government stealing your income from you. It's the government pooling resources so the society we live in can continue to function. There's more to success than making wise choices. It's also have the ability to even have that choice becaus…

Wow, HN folks sure have a 'socialist' slant. Anyway, do you think you are getting your money's worth when you give away 30% of your income in taxes? Do you know how much of the tax money is spent of infrastructure? Look at this chart of US budget spending. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY... 65% of taxpayer's money went to defense/social security/medicare-medicaid. Think about it for a mom…

I actually think people here tend to run more libertarian than socialist.

I wish we spent less on the defense, but the amount spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid sits fine with me. I consider that social infrastructure. When large portions of society go without, all of society suffers.

We see ourselves as fitting into society in different ways. You feel that the government is taking your money in the form of taxes. I feel that I'm paying for the privilege of living in a society that affords me the opportunity to earn money.