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Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

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Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#41

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

That, in combination with the ~50% tax rate on income and capital gains. Turns out, when you redistribute wealth, consumption increases so rapidly that the economy takes off.

That no longer is much of an option, as wealthy individuals have not only managed to reduce capital gains to ridiculously low levels, but also diversified their holdings throughout the globe. This makes taxation a poor tactic, as capital will just flow to tax havens as the rate increases.

Turns out that feudalism is the natural state of man, and reprieves from it are quite temporary anomalies.

For those interested in details, Thomas Piketty's Capital is an excellent reference on the subject. Also, the movie Inequality for All is a far more approachable presentation based on the book.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#42

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> So to people saying that Welch's advice was psychopathic bullshit, I say sucks to you. Grandpa worked 9-5 for Jack, was not a particularly ambitious man, and came out way ahead in return for his loyalty.

I'd have thought your grandfather was retired by the time Welch took over. In any case, Welch changed GE corporate culture away from what your grandfather would have been nostalgic about.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#43
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

That, in combination with the ~50% tax rate on income and capital gains. Turns out, when you redistribute wealth, consumption increases so rapidly that the economy takes off. That no longer is much of an option, as wealthy individuals have not only managed to reduce capital gains to ridiculously low levels, but also diversified their holdings throughout the globe. This makes taxation a poor tactic, as capital will ju…

I disagree with you in part, but would rather not debate it online.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#44
post #30

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> How exactly can you build a company that lasts for longer than a relative eyeblink when every person is looking out for #1, and expects to be stabbed in the ass by everyone around them? Exactly, but I believe you have the causal chain reversed. It was the big companies that severed the bond of trust, and the employees who had to adapt to the new free-for-all market. Neutron Jack eliminated 81,000 jobs in 5 years fr…

> It was the big companies that severed the bond of trust

Because they had to. The original "bond of trust" was never about actual two-way loyalty; it was about the company bottom line. Companies used "bond of trust" rhetoric to lure employees in; they never actually meant it.

In the period following WWII, most industries in the US were growth industries: companies had to get and keep workers by hook or by crook, even if it meant giving them lavish compensation well beyond what their work would actually be worth in an equilibrium, non-growth market, because the alternative for the company was to lose all the growth business to their competitors, as people bought cars, refrigerators, etc. who had never had them before. (Pg talks about this in one of his essays: basically, companies like GE in the two decades or so after WW II were startups overpaying for labor to capture market share.)

By the 1970s and 1980s, much of that growth had stopped because most of the markets for the big US industries were reasonably saturated. Most people now had cars, refrigerators, etc., so those companies all had to shift from a growth market to a mature market where most business was from repeat customers wanting to upgrade their products, not new customers who had never had the product before. So the companies, in order to stay in business, had to drastically change the way they treated employees, since the costs of those employees were now a significant driver to their bottom line.

I'm not saying the companies were good and sweet and true; of course not. They broke a lot of long-standing employee agreements in the process of downsizing. I'm just saying that any employee who didn't see it coming from a mile away wasn't paying attention, and any employee who actually believed the company rhetoric about the "bond of trust" was living in a fool's paradise from the beginning.

> Jack could've given these guys profit-sharing, equity or other incentives to work for him.

He could have given some of them those incentives, yes. He could never have given all of them those incentives; there wasn't enough to go around. The plain fact was that companies like GE had too many employees for a mature market; there was simply not enough business any more to support all of them.

Again, that doesn't mean the way he did it was good. But if it took what he did then for employees to realize they couldn't depend on him, then again, those employees weren't paying attention; they should have known from the start that they couldn't depend on him, that if push came to shove he was going to do what was best for the company, not best for them. Any employee should always know that; that's what it means to be an employee.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think that Mr. Welch's advice could be read as extremely cynical as well: maybe he's just telling people what they want to hear, which has the added benefit of encouraging (perhaps unwarranted) loyalty in lower-ranking employees. Like a self-serving Socratic "noble lie" for corporate types?

It was not a lie at the time. It worked out just fine. Why do you think he enjoys such an excellent reputation now? Reputation is just an effect of the sum of your interactions with people.

> It was not a lie at the time.

I'm not so sure. I think company executives in the boom years following WWII knew perfectly well that a time would come when the boom would be over, and those companies would have to start focusing more on labor costs and downsizing, reducing pay and benefits, etc. They just didn't see any need to tell the employees ahead of time that all that was coming at some point.

In other words, the company executives were never under any illusions that their "work all your career at our company and we'll take care of you" rhetoric was actually sustainable in the long term. Only employees had those illusions.

> It worked out just fine.

It sure worked out fine for Welch, yes. It didn't work out fine for a lot of his employees.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow you've decided that, despite labeling yourself unsuccessful, people should pay attention to what you say. The only support I see you making for this is citing your IQ, which is meaningless. You obviously believe you're telling people things that work, and the attempt to help is something I'm sure people appreciate. But based on what you're saying here, either you don't follow that advice, you don't understand…

I've had a lot of terrible luck. Some of it was no one's fault, most of it was not my fault. I'll probably be a lot more successful now that I have my shit together. But when things go bad for you, you learn what people really are in a way that the ones with charmed lives never really do. I suppose I'm lucky insofar as I had my bad luck in my 20s, when it was easier to recover than in one's 50s. Much knowledge can on…

To be fair, your idea of "terrible" luck basically means "having to switch jobs several times and making less than $250,000 as a 30 year old".

I mean, I get it: There are plenty of people who are less deserving than you that have been wildly, disproportionately successful. I can understand why you're envious. But don't kid yourself, most people would kill to have the supposedly miserable failure of a career that you've had.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#47
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think that Mr. Welch's advice could be read as extremely cynical as well: maybe he's just telling people what they want to hear, which has the added benefit of encouraging (perhaps unwarranted) loyalty in lower-ranking employees. Like a self-serving Socratic "noble lie" for corporate types?

It was not a lie at the time. It worked out just fine. Why do you think he enjoys such an excellent reputation now? Reputation is just an effect of the sum of your interactions with people.

Your grandfather's experience is evidence that something was working well. But this is advice that Jack Welch is giving in 2014, and as someone who is clearly still trying to be a public figure I would expect him to be a bit more in tune with the current state of affairs. It just strikes me as a little disingenuous.

Edit: typo.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

That, in combination with the ~50% tax rate on income and capital gains. Turns out, when you redistribute wealth, consumption increases so rapidly that the economy takes off. That no longer is much of an option, as wealthy individuals have not only managed to reduce capital gains to ridiculously low levels, but also diversified their holdings throughout the globe. This makes taxation a poor tactic, as capital will ju…

Naaah. The post-war revival in the economy was largely a result of having dismantled the FDR New Deal and its attendant control economy. No, not the Social Security part or anything like that - the part where politicians and regulators thought competition was bad for consumers, and spent the decade propping up their preferred cronies with price controls and selective bailouts and other such nonsense. With the politicians, of course, receiving ample campaign contributions in return. Taxes still damage the economy, it just turns out there are things that can damage an economy more than taxes. :)

Ah, the New Deal, when our leaders thought they could lead us out of famine and into prosperity by burning crops. Birthplace of big-agribusiness! Et cetera.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#50

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

You grandfather was not only one working for Jack Welch. He might have benefited, plenty of others did not. Jack Welch laid off a lot of loyal hardwoking capable people in his days. GE cut all businesses in which the company could not dominate the market in first or second positions and I doubt those all were slackers. Were your grandpa be employed there, his treatment would be much different.

He used "fire 10% management" strategy for years, maybe even started that thing. I find suspect that someone who is not particularly ambitious man working 9-5 survived long in that stab back otherwise you will be one of fired 10% environment. Maybe he retired before or was stable due to connections?

There were bound to be many many people who worked hard, did their best, achieved a lot and then fired cause somebody had to be fired no matter objective absolute performance.

Jack Welch contributed his share to dropping loyalty. Whether the "old high loyalty" was better or not, Jack Welch is among those who destroyed it.

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