Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#41

Post by AceJohnny2 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:24 AM UTC

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems.

Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of the industrial strength qualities that make CAN a valid automotive control bus, such as signal hardening and real-time guarantees.

As far as these users have found, this ethernet port is connected to the infotainment system: the 17" display.

I would be deeply disappointed in Tesla if the infotainment system can modify drive-control devices with anything less than signed binaries and commands. As an aside, I wonder what the legal requirements of such safeties are.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#42

Post by viraptor » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:25 AM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #34

viraptor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Nobody intends jailbreaks to be possible. It's done through exploiting bugs. And saying it'd be highly irresponsible to write a bug is like saying it'd be irresponsible to use the bathroom. It may stink, but everyone does it.

I'm aware these are just bugs, but there's a huge difference between iOS/android (let's keep it fairly secure, if anyone breaks it we'll release a fix... maybe, noone really cares) and car's system (probably at the level of: holy shit this cannot run untrusted code, even if that means adding trusted execution module that prevents booting if there's any unsigned byte present).

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#43

Post by threeseed » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

takeda wrote: post #28

jnbiche wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a mighty hacker-unfriendly stance to take for a company whose client base is made up of a disproportionately large number of engineers and computer scientists, many of whom will doubtless be curious as to the inner workings of their car computer systems. I mean, could you imagine if a car manufacturer took this attitude toward car owners who were exploring the car's transmission, which is clearly just as c…

Given that the fires were blown out of proportion by the media, I'm totally not surprised that they reacted this way. Imagine headlines if someone would be killed due to not correctly operating component because the owner used a buggy mod.

The only thing blown out of proportion is the reaction by Tesla and their supporters to the media. The media is doing what they do. Presenting stories that people care about. Major incidents to a brand that is new and popular is absolutely newsworthy.

But just because there maybe a bad story or two doesn't mean that Tesla should prevent people from doing whatever they want to their own car.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#44

Post by threeseed » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #19

driverdan wrote: post #4

“Tesla USA engineers have seen a tentative of hacking on my car.”, “can be related to industrial espionage and advised me to stop investigation, to not void the warranty”. So long as you don't cause any damage they can't void your warranty in the US thanks to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

Poking around an unknown device's network and sending arbitrary commands to see how it responds could certainly very well damage something.

So could poking around the physical components of the car.

But people are well within the right to do so.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#45

Post by viraptor » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

evv wrote: post #37

viraptor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Sure, I agree, but what system checks the signature? A responsible engineering team would have a dedicated piece of hardware for that. For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware. Not to mention that there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere. Its not the first time…

> For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware.

TPM style solutions already exist. Keys burned into the chip + verification at boot should do most of the work.

> there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere.

It could be something more interesting. A set of keys where signature requires N out of them? Even if there is some master key, they wouldn't keep it on a node connected to the network (one would hope...) Some hardware crypto-box maybe?

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#46

Post by threeseed » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:36 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

I guess the point is that signed binaries aren't full proof. Look at how jail breakers have been able to continually defeat the iOS security controls over the years. And surely Apple has a larger and more experienced development team than Tesla.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#47

Post by Dwolb » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:37 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

Just a note, automotive Ethernet PHYs exist [1] and there is some interest in real-time Ethernet applications (piggy-backing on an original audio use case, AVB) [2].

[1] http://www.broadcom.com/products/Physical-Layer/BroadR-Reach... [2] http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1315425

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#48

Post by evv » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:43 AM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #16

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

Now... imagine you have a low tech car facing an attacker armed with a pair of side cutters. First, locate the hood, second, use the release to pop it. Locate the master cylinder, and the hose running to the engine, cut it. Now the brakes don't work very well. Locate the hose not running to the engine, cut that, now the brakes don't work at all. Imagine that any person strong enough to operate side cutters can hack i…

Seriously? You're illustrating the point here. On low tech cars, an attacker has to hack the cars one-at-a-time. They could endanger one car load of people with each "job".

With high-tech cars, an attacker could hack every car of the same model. With thousands of Teslas on the road, I think it merits a higher concern than somebody with side cutters.

I thought it was obvious. Next time I'll let it go unsaid..

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#49

Post by j-g-faustus » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:44 AM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #31

chris_mahan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There should be a large warning on the console: "Warning to passengers: The Vehicle Systems have been Compromised. Please do not ride in this vehicle. A Service tow truck has been dispatched." Also, the car should not move.

Wow, as someone who grew up "hacking" on my car (i.e., on the engine) this attitude is pretty amazing. What a dangerous, mysterious thing a car must seem to you.

It's different in a number of ways: Suppose it's not you hacking your car, it's an enemy that want you dead. So they disable the brakes. Or perhaps it's possible for an attacker to disable the brakes only when you're braking hard and have a speed above 100 km/h (60 mph).

Or suppose a neighborhood kid is angry at you, have figured out how to hack the system, but haven't yet figured out the difference between "that'll teach them a lesson" and "this might actually kill them".

Or, hypothetically, if system hacks don't require a physical connection, it's wide open for anyone anywhere in the world to replicate something like the file encryption extortion scam[1]: Break into as many cars as you can. Send them a mail saying that you hacked their car. They can take the chance of figuring out what you did on their own, or pay you money to revert it. The scam might work just as well for cars you didn't break into, as long as the owners believe it's a credible threat.

The point isn't necessarily that these scenarios are more likely than in the physical world. The point is that many people have a fair idea how the physical world works, while they have only vague notions about "hacking" in the virtual world. We know that there are new threats, but we don't yet know what they are, so these new threats will be inherently scarier than the threats we already know about. (The devil you know, etc.)

[1]: http://www.techspot.com/news/17678-file-encryption-extortion...

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#50

Post by Theodores » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:52 AM UTC

Onto more important matters, does anyone know the track being played?

The title is 'All the things she said', which originally was a #1 Top 40 song by the Russian pop group 'Tatu'. However the picture is definitely not the Russian duo. Is this a German cover version of some sort?