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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#41

Post by esw »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

Workers with this mindset also tend not to think of their jobs as an exchange of labor for money.

Re: A nation of slaves

#42

Post by Dewie »

vijayr wrote: post #28
mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

Family? At least that's what all those disgruntled workers keep saying. :P

Life is meaningless. People just tend to disagree at what existential level it begins to become meaningless. But right now is not meaningless - we can choose to enjoy it. Whether that is by telling ourselves that we have a purpose and acting upon it, or by playing amateur tennis - what's the difference? In the grand scheme of things.

Doctors have a purpose, but only because people are sick. Homeless shelters have a purpose, but only because there are homeless people. Soldiers have a purpose, but only because there are wars to fight. Workers have a purpose, but only because there is work to be done.

Do people have a feeling of existential purpose only because there is some unfinished work that they can finish, some pain that they can alleviate, or something being a burden that they can take on their shoulders? If so, it's a good thing that Utopia can't become real. Because we wouldn't like it one bit.

Re: A nation of slaves

#43

Post by molsongolden »

gregpilling wrote: post #27
molsongolden wrote: post #8

This is a stressful topic that gets overwhelming quickly. Things are shifting but it's a slow shift and one that is going to be extremely painful before it gets better. Some interesting work going on with worker coops, parecon, post-scarcity economics, etc... As one of the linked comments noted "Looks like we've built higher-phase communism accidentally. Ooops." The Keynes article he briefly touches on is fantastic h…

While having a beer last week with some friends, the topic turned to the old question "What would you do if you suddenly had $20 million dollars handed to you?". This is an old question of course, on HN it would be called F U money, but it had been asked that day by a customer of my friend Kevin. Kevin makes jewelry tools. His immediate response was "I could buy more tools and machines!", which was my basic response…

> "I think humans like to do things. Make games, write software, build sandcastles, etc. Removing the need for work would not remove the work. The work would just be what we found to be entertaining to ourselves, instead of a job to eat."

This is part of the issue that arises. I've spoken with many people about the concept of a low-scarcity, low-growth, etc... leisure economy and the responses are surprising. "But then what will people do?" "What will motivate them to work?" "Why would anyone want that much free time?" Some people just don't have passions strong enough to drive their lives.

Keynes also addresses this in the above linked article, saying:

"Thus we have been expressly evolved by nature – with all our impulses and deepest instincts – for the purpose of solving the economic problem. If the economic problem is solved, mankind will be deprived of its traditional purpose.

Will this be a benefit? If one believes at all in the real values of life, the prospect at least opens up the possibility of benefit. Yet I think with dread of the readjustment of the habits and instincts of the ordinary man, bred into him for countless generations, which he may be asked to discard within a few decades.

To use the language of to-day – must we not expect a general “nervous breakdown“? We already have a little experience of what I mean – a nervous breakdown of the sort which is already common enough in England and the United States amongst the wives of the well-to-do classes, unfortunate women, many of them, who have been deprived by their wealth of their traditional tasks and occupations – who cannot find it sufficiently amusing, when deprived of the spur of economic necessity, to cook and clean and mend, yet are quite unable to find anything more amusing. "

I haven't dug for any data but at first glance it seems that many of our societal "vices" could be responses to this lack of purpose. Some of the socialist humanists touch on this topic, what happens to a man without purpose? Drugs, pornography, violence, depression, striking out and grasping for any sort of stimulation while flailing in a search for meaning.

Re: A nation of slaves

#44

Post by npsimons »

glesica wrote: post #26
happyscrappy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

I see you've never worked in a large organization... ;-) Bullshit jobs are largely jobs that managers create and defend in order to expand their managerial fiefdoms. A manager's influence in an organization comes partially from how many people report to him or her. That's the incentive structure that creates many of the bullshit jobs. There are also interpersonal issues in play. For instance, you or I might walk into…

It is a fallacy to believe that businesses operate efficiently simply because there is a profit motive. Businesses are complex organizations made up of people, with all their failings and weaknesses (if you want to call them that). It is not necessary for a business to be perfectly efficient to survive, it is only necessary that its competitors be equally inefficient.

I like to point this out to anyone who says "well, a business wouldn't do it if it made them less efficient", eg the case of open floor plans for programmers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507280

Re: A nation of slaves

#45

Post by drdeadringer »

acomar wrote: post #30
happyscrappy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

It's worse than that -- I've heard stories from friends in government agencies of people who do net-negative work (i.e. they create work for others) and keep their jobs for political/societal/social reasons.

I recall the following: "The factory at the edge of town has two employees -- a Human, and a dog. The Human's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to keep the Human away from the machines."

Re: A nation of slaves

#46

Post by Theodores »

Our economies also have this tendency to siphon off surplus and spend it on expensive military projects such as wars. There is the general year in year out expenditure on new military toys, keeping the nuclear 'deterrent' up to date and keeping those boys polishing their boots. We don't get a proper tax breakdown on this expenditure so I would only be guessing as to how much is really spent.

On top of this regular expenditure are the billions that have been spent bombing Afghanistan and Iraq to pieces. We have been saddled with debt to pay for that and it won't be the politicians that will be personally paying that off.

Although a lot of people don't wish to see it that way, war is a racket. Nobody would bother unless there was money to be made. The waste goes far beyond the lives lost and the taxes diverted, there is also a real loss of valuable materials and energy resources. It is all an incredible waste yet we are always told that 'defence' is good for jobs.

Given the default option for siphoning off the 'fruits of capitalist surplus' is more and more bombs and weapons, that is kind of what we all work for in our variously inane jobs. Isn't this a fantastic situation?

Re: A nation of slaves

#47

Post by tambourine_man »

vijayr wrote: post #28
mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

what makes one person a success and another a failure

Why not abandon the notion altogether? This is not a competition.

Re: A nation of slaves

#48

Post by happyscrappy »

glesica wrote: post #26
happyscrappy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

I see you've never worked in a large organization... ;-) Bullshit jobs are largely jobs that managers create and defend in order to expand their managerial fiefdoms. A manager's influence in an organization comes partially from how many people report to him or her. That's the incentive structure that creates many of the bullshit jobs. There are also interpersonal issues in play. For instance, you or I might walk into…

>It is a fallacy to believe that businesses operate efficiently simply because there is a profit motive.

Operating more efficiently is exactly what is destroying jobs. Middle managers are an easy target but I fail to see how there are enough of them to move the needles.

Re: A nation of slaves

#49

Post by imgabe »

logfromblammo wrote: post #9

Here's a thought experiment. Mr. Myne has invented an extraordinary machine. This one machine can, using polluted air and brackish water as material inputs, produce a nutritious food substitute and potable water for one person for one entire day with less than $1.30 of grid power. The 2000 kcal daily diet uses about 8000 kcal of electricity and 10 L of dirty water. With this machine, a person can avoid starvation and…

In what sense? Do they stop paying and keep using it or stop paying and go back to getting food and water the normal way?

Most of the developed world already has access to potable water for very low prices.

Does this machine need to be one per person or can it be scaled to have one giant machine feeding a bunch of people?

If the machine can be taken apart and replicated then Mr. Myrne is going to be sol.

Re: A nation of slaves

#50

Post by yodsanklai »

vijayr wrote: post #28
mjmahone17 wrote: post #14

One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output. I don't think that's necessarily a…

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

"If not work - what is important?"

Family, traveling, learning things, playing sports, spending time with friends, love, and more generally having fun while we can.

"what makes one person a success and another a failure"

That's quite a binary view of the world! why do you want people to be either a success or a failure? even if that's you want, work is certainly not the only metric for that.

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