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Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

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Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it ever in doubt that the USA is the best place to start a business? You have an English-speaking domestic market that accounts for 30% of the planet's GDP, huge talent pools, easy access to capital, a culture that encourages entrepreneurship, significantly above-average rule of law, strong corporate veils, and a mostly tolerable tax burden. It ain't perfect, but you can't do better anywhere else in this solar sy…

Was it ever in doubt that the USA is the best place to start a business? America is no. 14 on the list of best countries to start a business in. http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/

You need to be a little careful with these rankings, because they're subjective. Forbes, for instance, drastically prioritizes taxes for its rankings. The corporate tax rate in the US is higher than that of Ireland, and (as Forbes summary straightforwardly admits) that pushes the US down in the rankings.

For a startup, there are significantly more important factors to consider than the corporate tax rate, not least because most startups are managed to avoid taxable profits for the first several years of their existence (sometimes all the way up until IPO). For instance:

* The US offers at-will employment. Ireland, at the top of the list, has an Unfair Dismissal act that allows employees with a year of tenure to file claims not only if they're dismissed, but if they're "constructively" dismissed --- that is to say, if their role in the company is substantially altered in a way that allows them to claim that they're being "managed out" of the company. Constructive dismissal is a standard market clause for executives and acquirees in the US, but is certainly not a day-to-day feature of employment law.

* The World Bank Ease-of-doing-business index dings Ireland, putting them far below the US, for (among other things) the difficulty of enforcing contracts in Ireland; my tea-leaf-reading from the index's abstracted data is that you have a good certainty of enforcing a contract base in Ireland, but that the process is more time-consuming and expensive than in the US, which is ranked 50 places higher than Ireland (at #11 overall).

* Similarly, the World Bank dings Denmark (putting them 2 places below the US overall) because (among other things) it's significantly more difficult to incorporate in Denmark than in the US (where you can do it approximately as easily as ordering a non-one-click-compatible book from Amazon). Denmark also has mandatory severance of up to 6 months wages depending on tenure. 6 months wages isn't a big deal to any big company, but for a startup, it could change the calculus of when the company will need to shutter during a downswing to meet its legal obligations to employees; in the US, so long as you can make good on any current wages owed employees, you can run up until the last minute.

* Sweden, which Forbes ranks higher than the US, has intricate employment law rules that require not only a legally defensible just cause for termination, but also a good faith effort on the part of an employer to find another job for an employee even if just cause exists to fire them. Sweden also allows shareholders to personally sue directors in a variety of situations. There is no way Forbes actually believes Sweden is a better place to start a company than the US.

Here is a combination of factors that makes the US a good place to start a business:

* Extremely well-tested corporation law that makes the formation of a company, distribution of equity, resolution of disputes, and enforcement of ownership relatively predictable.

* Virtually no government interference with the formation of companies themselves, so that you could practically form a new LLC for every individual Github project you started, pay less for that than you would for hosting costs, and stand a very good chance of having those LLCs defend your interests in disputes.

* Multiple classes of corporation, convertible between each other, with some optimized for "click a button on a web page and create an LLC for my Github project", and others, not that much more expensive, that allow for multiple classes of shareholder, with the laws for those corporate forms predictable enough that hundreds of thousands of dollars of venture funding have become a standardized packaged product for promising startups (this is mind-boggling when you look at the societal infrastructure that enables it).

* A system of at-will employment that (for the most part) makes employment of workers almost risk free, so long as you don't play fast and loose with owed salary or tax withholdings.

* A tax system that is reasonably simple, not disastrously onerous, and in many ways optimized for entrepreneurs (for instance, the differing taxation schemes offered for salary versus distributions, or the ease of deducting business expenses).

* Extremely well-tested employment law that, among other things, makes it straightforward to retain 1099 contractors for one-off projects without risking their conversion into full-time employees with severance rights.

* One of the world's largest single borderless markets, such that you can start a company in Oregon and, with almost total certainty, be able to straightforwardly collect money for services (other than direct financial services, insurance, pharmaceuticals, and agriculture) from people in Florida.

* The host of the world's largest equities markets, so that investors in startups can plow money into companies knowing that if that company is the 1 in 20 that is going to go public, the most lucrative place for it to go public is the country of its origin.

The US is probably not the best place in the world to start a company. Forbes and the World Bank agree that Hong Kong and New Zealand are better. But running a company in New Zealand also requires you to domicile in New Zealand, which can complicate hiring, marketing, and (if you sell anything physical) channel delivery.

If we had single-payer health coverage, I think we'd be the best country to do business in.

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#42
post #10

This kind of thing seems to be one reason America is still the best place to start a business. I'm saying that in order to spark a debate and challenge that belief. Would anyone please list some actions taken by the US government which is similar in nature to the takeover illustrated here? It seems very similar to what happened in the middle ages. Before the rise of the merchant class, specifically the ability to def…

Most people don't realise that Russia is a brutal petro-chemical dictatorship in economical decline which is clamping down hard on human rights, freedom of the press and radicalising its population through propaganda. I've been following the Crimea conflict very closely (which almost certainly is also what caused Pavel's departure) and the seriousness of the situation is heavily underestimated by the world. The Russi…

You mister read that :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare

and then do more search on the internet about how USA are basically forcing everybody to buy oil in $$.

At least russia doesnt force other nations to trade gaz in rubs.

So yeah,russia is evil , but USA are even more evil.

EDIT:

downvote me all you want it's not just a conspiracy theory,that's a fact,but since we are on a pro american board, i did not expect anything else but downvotes.

There is a reason why USA invaded Irak or Libya,and it had nothing to do with promoting democracry.

It was about the fear of USA seeing Iraki and Libyan leaders trade their oil in something else than dollars.

And when the world revolts against this made up,military backed dollar domination, USA will fail hard. Because the dollar is backed by nothing but fear.

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So say some journalists. The results speak for themselves. Edit: In case it wasn't apparent, my "ever any doubt" question was rhetorical hyperbole. Any statement, no matter how self-evident, will have some people contradicting it. Edit2: See mtrimpe's comment below; Forbes is probably optimizing for small business in their analysis instead of startups with potential for high scalability.

In case it wasn't apparent, my "ever any doubt" question was rhetorical hyperbole. Any statement, no matter how self-evident, will have some people contradicting it. Your argument that the US is the best place to start a business is not in any way "self-evident", and you have provided no source or proof. So say some journalists. Their methodology seems sound. "We determined the Best Countries for Business by looking…

Did you actually find their methodology? I couldn't. I read the summary of the most recent rankings, which explained why the US was so far down the list (taxes), but not the scheme by which they consolidates all the sources they used and created a rating.

Given Forbes' own editorial slant, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to look at these rankings as a simple coatrack for Forbes argument that the US corporate tax rate should be lowered.

If you could find the methodology document for Forbes ranking --- anything similar to the World Bank's ranking, which is itself not totally great, would be helpful --- I'd be grateful. This topic comes up a lot on HN.

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#46
post #42
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't realise that Russia is a brutal petro-chemical dictatorship in economical decline which is clamping down hard on human rights, freedom of the press and radicalising its population through propaganda. I've been following the Crimea conflict very closely (which almost certainly is also what caused Pavel's departure) and the seriousness of the situation is heavily underestimated by the world. The Russi…

You mister read that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare and then do more search on the internet about how USA are basically forcing everybody to buy oil in $$. At least russia doesnt force other nations to trade gaz in rubs. So yeah,russia is evil , but USA are even more evil. EDIT: downvote me all you want it's not just a conspiracy theory,that's a fact,but since we are on a pro american board, i did…

The article refers to "petrodollar warfare hypothesis". It doesn't provide any proof. In particular it doesn't prove any of the "forcing" that you refer to.

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#47

This kind of thing seems to be one reason America is still the best place to start a business. I'm saying that in order to spark a debate and challenge that belief. Would anyone please list some actions taken by the US government which is similar in nature to the takeover illustrated here? It seems very similar to what happened in the middle ages. Before the rise of the merchant class, specifically the ability to def…

> I'm saying that in order to spark a debate and challenge that belief. Would anyone please list some actions taken by the US government which is similar in nature to the takeover illustrated here?

Killing Lavabit for instance?

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#48
post #18

Did someone consider the fact that this might be an April 1st joke?

It's not. It's been a long coming process.

Could you provide some proof links please? Because that thing sounds really unbelievable, and given the date… That's why I hate that stupid 'holiday' so much!

Re: Pavel Durov quits as VKontakte CEO

#49
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously not a topic that can have a conclusive resolution. There are too many factors at play here. I believe the preponderance of evidence is in favor of starting a business in the USA, specifically in one of the major innovation hubs.

I agree with you; tech hubs are extremely important, which is where Europe seems to be lagging behind. I just think the reason they ARE lagging behind is because US is considered the default country to go for starting a business, without second thought. EDIT:I should probably clarify - I meant the US is viewed as the best, hypothetically, not necessarily implying action.

The idea that Europeans uproot their families and move to the US without a second thought is quite unlikely.

Edit: changed to unlikely.

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