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Why San Francisco Is Not New York

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#41

Post by bane »

eddieroger wrote: post #29
nextstep wrote: post #3

Not to mention, New York is relatively clean compared to San Francisco. San Francisco shuts down at 10pm; New York truly is the city that never sleeps, and many neighborhoods feel busy and alive at all hours of the night. The public transportation in SF (and the larger Bay Area) is a classist, unreliable nightmare. New York has probably the best public transit systems in the country. Owning a car in NY is unusual and…

Having spent time in both, but living in neither, I think that's fair. Specifically, good observation on the cleanliness of the city. New York is busy, but I never felt it was dirty in the way I immediately felt SF was. I think a large part of it was the uncontrolled panhandling and the fact that there are certain areas that those folks know will be busy, so they go there. I've never seen anyone openly urinate on the…

It also helps that it rains more in NYC. NYC is a wonder to behold a few hours after a rainstorm. I've noticed that places that don't get lots of rain just look perpetually more "dirty" and used.

NYC also has this weird way of turning filth into part of the set piece of the city that very few places can manage.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#42

Post by mike_herrera »

raverbashing wrote: post #22
wdewind wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number and quality of restaurants in NY is unrivaled. NYC native and mostly SF-hater here. Hate to say it but SF has us beat for food. If you want to go have a 5 star meal you're going to pay about the same and get about the same food in both cities (NYC obviously has the edge here, but not hugely), but San Francisco has NYC (especially Manhattan) absolutely dominated at the everyday eating level (ie: burritos,…

" The general ingredient quality just blows NYC away - both meat and produce." Well, west coast (meaning: access to Australia and some other selling markets), good climate, etc

SF's neighbor to-the-east, The San Joaquin Valley, is "the nation's salad bowl." Which also happens to be home to many cattle and sheep operations.

Access for foreign imports are important for the gourmet scene, but not necessary.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#43

Post by sltkr »

michaelochurch wrote: post #14
nextstep wrote: post #3

Not to mention, New York is relatively clean compared to San Francisco. San Francisco shuts down at 10pm; New York truly is the city that never sleeps, and many neighborhoods feel busy and alive at all hours of the night. The public transportation in SF (and the larger Bay Area) is a classist, unreliable nightmare. New York has probably the best public transit systems in the country. Owning a car in NY is unusual and…

The issue is this. San Francisco used to be weird, beautiful, edgy, and affordable outside of known rich neighborhoods (Pac Heights) that, like the UES, aren't very interesting places to be, anyway, unless you live there. San Francisco used to have a lot of unique character to recommend it. It still does, to a lesser extent, but it also has douches wearing Glass and paying huge sums of money for crappy apartments, no…

> [..] douches [..] paying huge sums of money for crappy apartments, not even because they want to live there, but because they enjoy bullying the poors.

I find this very hard to believe.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#44

Post by wdewind »

auntienomen wrote: post #31
wdewind wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number and quality of restaurants in NY is unrivaled. NYC native and mostly SF-hater here. Hate to say it but SF has us beat for food. If you want to go have a 5 star meal you're going to pay about the same and get about the same food in both cities (NYC obviously has the edge here, but not hugely), but San Francisco has NYC (especially Manhattan) absolutely dominated at the everyday eating level (ie: burritos,…

I've lived in both places and this strikes me as correct. The day-to-day food in SF is just excellent, In part, I suspect, because they incorporate fresh vegetables of a kind that are just not available in NY for 8 months out of the year. Also critical: The food in the greater NYC metro area is abysmal. The quality falls off very rapidly once you exit the city. Whereas if you walk into some random restaurant in some…

> The food in the greater NYC metro area is abysmal. The quality falls off very rapidly once you exit the city.

Oh man is that true :( Long Island is not known for it's cuisine...

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#45

Post by bane »

michaelochurch wrote: post #14
nextstep wrote: post #3

Not to mention, New York is relatively clean compared to San Francisco. San Francisco shuts down at 10pm; New York truly is the city that never sleeps, and many neighborhoods feel busy and alive at all hours of the night. The public transportation in SF (and the larger Bay Area) is a classist, unreliable nightmare. New York has probably the best public transit systems in the country. Owning a car in NY is unusual and…

The issue is this. San Francisco used to be weird, beautiful, edgy, and affordable outside of known rich neighborhoods (Pac Heights) that, like the UES, aren't very interesting places to be, anyway, unless you live there. San Francisco used to have a lot of unique character to recommend it. It still does, to a lesser extent, but it also has douches wearing Glass and paying huge sums of money for crappy apartments, no…

SF is like the Hippy movement writ large. Weird and experimental and funky a long time ago, got older and realized money is better and now wears turtlenecks and wireframe glasses that are too small and protects their property investment by artificially limiting availability and keeping public transport away (so the riff raff can't get around as easy). A few folks burned out early and couldn't get in on a good investment vehicle, but the weather is too nice to do anything about it and nobody seems to mind when you take a pee in the middle of the street. Plus, it's not too hard to bum a ride every month or two and head north to score some great bud.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#46

Post by pg »

I lived in NYC at one point, and I'd agree that the two cities are fundamentally different, but I think he missed what may be the biggest source of the difference: the proportion of people playing zero-sum games. A lot of the most ambitious people in NYC work in finance, whereas in SF hardly any do. Nearly all the most ambitious people in SF make money by creating things that other people are willing to pay them for. That means SF attracts different people than NYC, and changes people who live there in different ways.

You get the money later when you do that, which is another big reason people in SF don't spend so much. In finance you get paid as you go, and a lot of people in NYC spend it as they go. Indeed, friends who've worked in the finance industry have told me firms have a deliberate policy of encouraging new recruits to spend all their salaries and bonuses, as way of getting them hooked. Whereas in SF a lot of people's net worth is tied up in illiquid stock.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#47

Post by 14113 »

qwerta wrote: post #6

> The lack of diversity between social groups in San Francisco isn’t going to change anytime soon, as the number of tech employees in the Bay Area is only going to continue to rise. I am not sure I understand. Tech sector brings people from all over the world including India, China, South America and Europe.

You missed the point of the quote - it's diversity between social groups, not between race. It's likely that all the employees in the tech sector are of a similar earning potential, a similar age, and have similar upbringings and home lives. This contrasts with the rest of the people living in the area, and causes problems.

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#48

Post by jortiz81 »

qwerta wrote: post #6

> The lack of diversity between social groups in San Francisco isn’t going to change anytime soon, as the number of tech employees in the Bay Area is only going to continue to rise. I am not sure I understand. Tech sector brings people from all over the world including India, China, South America and Europe.

NYC cuts across race, class, and country of origin in its diversity -- in a way SF doesn't. The neighborhoods are also much more integrated largely because of the density of the city. For example, it's not uncommon to find public housing units embedded between luxury condos. The kids of both communities attend the same local school (usually up until high school), a few blocks away. That means, integrated social gathering and hang out. You can see this at local parks where everyone gets together to play sports. This impacts how you grow up and experience/understand/become sensitive to race and class differences.

The introduction to this article really captures this well: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/nyregion/05jackson.html

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#49

Post by crusso »

michaelochurch wrote: post #14
nextstep wrote: post #3

Not to mention, New York is relatively clean compared to San Francisco. San Francisco shuts down at 10pm; New York truly is the city that never sleeps, and many neighborhoods feel busy and alive at all hours of the night. The public transportation in SF (and the larger Bay Area) is a classist, unreliable nightmare. New York has probably the best public transit systems in the country. Owning a car in NY is unusual and…

The issue is this. San Francisco used to be weird, beautiful, edgy, and affordable outside of known rich neighborhoods (Pac Heights) that, like the UES, aren't very interesting places to be, anyway, unless you live there. San Francisco used to have a lot of unique character to recommend it. It still does, to a lesser extent, but it also has douches wearing Glass and paying huge sums of money for crappy apartments, no…

that's also the fault of the NIMBYs, who should be squashed with extreme prejudice

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I respect the right of people to help determine the kind of city they want to have. Enough people who already live in SF are saying that they don't want to be New York. What's wrong with that?

Re: Why San Francisco Is Not New York

#50

Post by jortiz81 »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #9
qwerta wrote: post #6

> The lack of diversity between social groups in San Francisco isn’t going to change anytime soon, as the number of tech employees in the Bay Area is only going to continue to rise. I am not sure I understand. Tech sector brings people from all over the world including India, China, South America and Europe.

Actually, that's one good thing about Santa Clara County (ie Silicon Valley proper), despite being a suburban hellhole, there's a ton of ethnic diversity.

It is statistically diverse, but like most other places, each ethnic group lives in a bubble separate from the other, mostly. The density of NYC forces deep interaction between communities -- much deeper than simply judging diversity based on the different restaurants you see or the languages you might hear at the mall everyone goes to. Here's a good article about the kind of thing that's common in NYC and nowhere else: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/nyregion/05jackson.html
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