Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs • Hacker News Board

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#41

Post by nraynaud » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 4:48 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #28

nraynaud wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite some bullshit in this article, because the current government has not changed any law about creating a company (so we are exactly in the same state as before). Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. And there is a little detail here: banking salaries are higher in London than in Paris and bankers are driven by money, so they emigrate massively in the pursuit of…

Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. This is a big problem with current envy-driven politics surrounding wealth. A lot of people don't like seeing bankers with big bonuses after they trashed the economy for everyone else. They're suspicious of old money children who have inherited a fortune but seem to have contributed little of value themselves. They're envious of highly pa…

This is not a taxation by envy, this is Adam Smith "ability to pay" theory, it's the guy who rules UK who invented it, it can't be wrong, on an authority ground! Man! Adam Smith!

You have to understand that absolute tax rate is just not meaningful, you can't say it's high or low, you need a reference. The real question is: where does the money go? In France it's easy the accounting is public: it goes mainly into retirement and medicines. (yeah, technically it's not taxes, but it's still money the State takes, it's bigger than actual taxes and the debt incurred there is carried by the State General Budget anyways). And then the discussion goes, are the pensions fair in France (and the system where one generation pays for the previous one), what about medicine prices? etc.

Don't believe the complaint of the wealthy, they still have a better life than the rest of the population, the only difference is that their friends are journalists. Doctors in France have a better life than street workers. And the thinking than a banker is more important and deserve more money than the garbage man is more alive than ever (also only one of them is literally protecting us from the plague, and only one of them can say: "it me or the chaos in 3 days").

Nobody has been punished by taxes here, the wealthy are perfectly happy to come to Paris through a tax-funded airport, through a taxpayer maintained highway, or through a tunnel that was used to fuck over middle class people. We have gated communities, we give truckloads of money to big corps, and some of the biggest fortunes in the world are here, we're not very different.

One difference is that the average people here don't think that they are temporarily embarrassed millionnaires, they know that only a very few people get out of their birth class. And they are conservative (and that drive me crazy).

I think the real problem is that we should enjoy the safety net for doing innovation, not mess with the taxes or what some special interests in the UK and US are saying.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#42

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:01 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #28

nraynaud wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite some bullshit in this article, because the current government has not changed any law about creating a company (so we are exactly in the same state as before). Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. And there is a little detail here: banking salaries are higher in London than in Paris and bankers are driven by money, so they emigrate massively in the pursuit of…

Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. This is a big problem with current envy-driven politics surrounding wealth. A lot of people don't like seeing bankers with big bonuses after they trashed the economy for everyone else. They're suspicious of old money children who have inherited a fortune but seem to have contributed little of value themselves. They're envious of highly pa…

This is a big problem with current envy-driven politics surrounding wealth.

This is not envy driven. Not wanting bonuses for bankers who were bailed out by public money has to do with bonus-driven bad decisions being a fundamental cause of the crash that cost everyone else trillions of dollars in wealth, economic growth, unemployment benefits and bailouts. Look up "moral hazard", and note that they are up to the same shenanigans that got us into this mess.

Furthermore, if the banks are, effectively, government guaranteed, then bankers should be paid as government employees. Greater pay is for greater skill and risk, their risk is borne by everyone but themselves and as for skill... So it is only proper (and not "envy") for the taxpayers to get those bonuses.

..old money children who have inherited a fortune but seem to have contributed little of value themselves

This is also a huge economic and social problem, no need to invoke "envy". The moneyed elites have started to decouple themselves from the rest of the world. I went to a prep school in Michigan where this was quite apparent, and scary. There was also a recent study that warned that this decoupling of the elites from everyone else could lead to (or contribute heavily to) the collapse of civilization [1]. For an artistic rendition, see "Elysium". What's so scary about that film is not the dystopian outlook, but rather how real a lot of it already feels.

They're envious of highly paid sporting or artistic celebrities who get more salary in a week than most of us make in a year.

Again, there are good economic arguments for this being a problem. Pay way in excess of the ability to consume creates a huge overhang in liquidity with which people start to gamble in the international financial casino, creating instability[1] See also "Giant Pool of Money"[2]

And so they support punitive rates of tax for those who earn noticeably more than they do

The rates are not punitive. They are stabilizing. Where this rate starts is a good question to which I don't have a good answer.

Unfortunately, what that usually does in practice is hit highly qualified professionals or modestly successful entrepreneurs

Not according to any statistics I have seen. References?

However, the people these punitive taxes don't hit are the ones that the popular moneylust craves, because the super-rich are the people who have the flexibility to move their assets and/or themselves around to avoid high-tax environments. Absent serious international co-operation to overcome the naturally competitive tax environment that today's globalised society creates, these people will continue to be super-rich no matter what

So should we not do this because it is wrong or because it won't work? It seems it can't work if we don't start somewhere. Certainly finance has globalized, so it seems it is time for enforcement to catch up. This seems to start happening, see the crackdown on Switzerland as a tax-haven/money-laundering center.

[1] http://www.sesync.org/sites/default/files/resources/moteshar...

[2] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...

[3] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/t...

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#43

Post by demoncore » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #8

> Taxes, Frustration, More Taxes Uh, that's how I could describe my current situation in Germany. We were a little too successful last year and now the tax advance payments are endangering our liquidity. It feels as if this year I had spent more time reading about taxes and regulations than working on the business. Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ...

Interesting to hear the German perspective. If you could share any more anonymous data e.g. tax rates, what you would have done in retrospect, etc I would very much appreciate it. No hard feelings if you can't.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#44

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

nraynaud wrote: post #41

Silhouette wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. This is a big problem with current envy-driven politics surrounding wealth. A lot of people don't like seeing bankers with big bonuses after they trashed the economy for everyone else. They're suspicious of old money children who have inherited a fortune but seem to have contributed little of value themselves. They're envious of highly pa…

This is not a taxation by envy, this is Adam Smith "ability to pay" theory, it's the guy who rules UK who invented it, it can't be wrong, on an authority ground! Man! Adam Smith! You have to understand that absolute tax rate is just not meaningful, you can't say it's high or low, you need a reference. The real question is: where does the money go? In France it's easy the accounting is public: it goes mainly into reti…

>they know that only a very few people get out of their birth class

Ironically, high income taxes will ensure that result.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#45

Post by glasz » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #8

> Taxes, Frustration, More Taxes Uh, that's how I could describe my current situation in Germany. We were a little too successful last year and now the tax advance payments are endangering our liquidity. It feels as if this year I had spent more time reading about taxes and regulations than working on the business. Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ...

> Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ...

it's not just business life. i once watched a talk of a professor of law who said the ethical side of laws (tax law specifically) obligates them (even by a guideline, i thin) to be readable and digestable by every person to whom this law applies. he said, since this is clearly not the case in germany anymore our tax laws are thus rendered unjust and invalid.

he obviously is right. now, good luck in front of the supreme court of our great democracy.

of course, this discussion perfectly stretches into the area of tax evasion and if and/or why there's much incentive for doing so. also, isn't the state of tax laws only incriminating people by making tax evasion a crime due to the law being overly excessive on one side and undigestable on the other?

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#46

Post by snowwrestler » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

existencebox wrote: post #15

digitalengineer wrote: post #6

> “Generally, if you are self-made man and earn money, you are looked at with suspicion,” > there’s a deep-rooted feeling that you don’t show that you make money > It’s more like, if someone has something I can’t have, I’d rather deprive this person from having it than trying to work hard to get it myself This. A lot of people still don't understand money can me made . They see succesfull men and woman and assume the…

I don't mean to play devils advocate here, but let me apply two other possible interpretations: My statistical prior that someone with money did questionable things to obtain it has only been rising with time as I see increasing evidence of illicit business practices among the highest earners. (everything from insider trading to the more recent wage fixing). Secondly, is it reasonable to assume that one might find di…

Be wary of confirmation bias. If you believe that succeeding requires acting badly, then you are more likely to remember and believe stories that frame success that way.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#47

Post by ThomPete » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

Ahh European entrepreneurship.

The US has it's issues, but Europe is simply decades behind.

The irony of all this is that the EU has very successfully created an internal market allowing for easier trade between countries in the EU, but it's ability to foster new comanies is still hindered by it's old industry understanding of a new industry.

"Les misérables

Europe not only has a euro crisis, it also has a growth crisis. That is because of its chronic failure to encourage ambitious entrepreneurs..."

http://www.economist.com/node/21559618

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#48

Post by nraynaud » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #44

nraynaud wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a taxation by envy, this is Adam Smith "ability to pay" theory, it's the guy who rules UK who invented it, it can't be wrong, on an authority ground! Man! Adam Smith! You have to understand that absolute tax rate is just not meaningful, you can't say it's high or low, you need a reference. The real question is: where does the money go? In France it's easy the accounting is public: it goes mainly into reti…

>they know that only a very few people get out of their birth class Ironically, high income taxes will ensure that result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Country_compari... this is completely wrong.

edit: and this is frightening to see this kind of thinking on HN, this is not Fox News here, we all have access to the same google.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#49

Post by analog31 » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

digitalengineer wrote: post #33

analog31 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view it's reasonable to interpret "self made" as meaning that a person made money within a society that provides an elaborate economic infrastructure. I don't know what it's like in France, but here in the states, we have things like a stable currency, public support of education and research, and limitation of liability for shareholders of corporations. And of course if inheritance is involved, then the "self"…

Let's not forget all those benefits were made possible by the people adding value and selling something (each in their own way, some products, others selling their craft of just their time). This adding of value was then taxed. (I'm not protesting to taxes, just showing all those benefits were made possible by the people and executed by the state).

Yes, definitely. Thanks.

Re: Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

#50

Post by analog31 » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 6:37 PM UTC

It would be interesting to know how _personal_ taxes work in European countries. I remember conversing with somebody, maybe from England, who told me that the typical worker doesn't file any paperwork for their annual taxes, unless they're doing something unusual. If that's the case, then filing business taxes for the first time would come as somewhat of a shock. In contrast, my personal tax return here in the US is about 10x more complex than my business tax paperwork (Schedule C plus a state sales tax return).