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Holacracy is Bullshit

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41–50 of 110 posts

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#41
My father, who I consider to have been one of the "real" hippies, told me that he couldn't deal with hippie communes. He claimed that when the group becomes large enough and everyone should be considered equal, a jerk comes in to take advantage of the situation, starts managing, and fucks everything up.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#42
The problem with management isn’t managers, the problem with management is bad managers.

So, on the one hand, we have what we might call the Lord of the Flies narrative - that Github's pseudo-anarchic non-management just enables people's worst traits to come to the surface; it doesn't remove power imbalances, it just hides them and makes it harder to challenge illegitimate use of that power because it's harder to identify.

On the flip side, we have what we might call the Milgram Experiment narrative - that authority positions are naturally corrupting, making belief in good management seem utopian; sure, we'd all like to be managed by someone that we respect, admire and trust, but we're just as likely to be managed by someone that we fear, pity or loathe, and the explicit hierarchy turns out to be just as hard to challenge as the implicit one and often even more so.

Lots of people seem to have decided that one of the above is the greater evil, and are willing to risk the other. Github is in the minority of companies that (hitherto) has seen the latter as the greater evil, or at least that is how the company has presented itself (I don't work there and don't personally know anyone who does, so I really can't comment on anything other than the rhetoric).

What we need is, boring though this may seem, some kind of balance between the two. In an anarchic company, people are going to over-step the boundaries (e.g. by reverting a co-workers commits due to a personal dispute). Some authority needs to police this. However, that authority only really needs to be reactive - it should punish wrongdoers rather than order people around on a daily basis. Most of the time, people do the right thing and can be left to get on with it, and hassling them while they do it is harmful.

To get overly philosophical, I think we can have the best of both worlds by borrowing the concept of 'complex equality'[1], which comes from the book Spheres of Justice by Michael Walzer[2]. In a nutshell, he suggests that we can avoid power imbalances by ensuring that natural and legitimate imbalances within different 'spheres' do not spill over into other ones. In the context of tech companies, we might have, say, a 'discipline' sphere where managers are in charge, a 'technical' sphere where engineers are in charge, a 'design' sphere with designers in charge, and so on. Being the top engineer doesn't give you the right to overrule a designer on a design question, and being a top manager doesn't give you the right to overrule an engineer on a technical question. If we're dealing with a personal conflict, this falls under the jurisdiction of management, and they should have full authority to resolve it. If we're dealing with a technical debate, that should be resolved by engineers. Resource allocation should be handled as democratically as possible.

Once you think in this way, it becomes obvious why some companies and projects fail: managers demanding authority over technical matters (e.g. estimates, software development workflow), engineers demanding authority over design (I'm sure we can all think of examples), or anyone demanding authority over management practices. These are all likely to lead to abuse and mismanagement; in any case they are unlikely to be optimal. What companies need is formal structure, but structure that constrains authority rather than simply entrusting it to managers and thereafter hoping that they turn out to be, against the odds, good ones.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_equality [2] I am dimly aware that Walzer is controversial in some circles. I know nothing about him apart from the book, so please do not take anything I say as an endorsement or condemnation of any of his other views, which are beside the point here.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#44

"When you allow a power vacuum to emerge someone will fill it, and it’s usually the people who have traditionally held power (rich white men)." Why? If there is a power vacuum, exactly what forces support rich white men filling those roles? Why can't woman or person of a different race fill the role? Near as I can tell, the only thing I can see that supports this likelihood is base rates. A greater percentage of the…

Yes, but all such questions can lead to un-PC conclusions, therefore you may want to keep quiet.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#45

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

Yep. This has been driving me crazy.

Bad actors and unstable people are found in EVERY organization, no matter what the hierarchy or lack thereof.

A falling out at GitHub proves nothing! This is a datum, not a statistical study. How many traditionally run organizations have completely imploded and gone bankrupt, or been involved in HR lawsuits?

I find it completely asinine that people will use GitHub's problems to push their pet theories.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#46
post #34

Actually, if you look at the situation, it was the very nature of having a Founder involved. If there were no Founders or other powerful people, then that wife's all edged bullshit never would have taken off. Holacracy is not Bullshit.

In other words, holacracy as a concept is incompatible with a startup's typical ownership structure?

I don't think so; operational/management structure and ownership structure don't have to interact the way they did here. OTOH, without formal rules and control mechanism to assure that those rules are respected, the ownership structure is naturally going to impact the operational/management structure, which will make holarchy unlikely with any ownership structure (other than ownership through an identical fractal network of teams as the intended operational structure.)

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#47
post #28
post #2

>In the wake of this, I’m starting to think all of the problems we’re seeing with Silicon Valley these days—the ineptitude at politics, the clumsiness with handling inequality in SF, the lack of gender and racial diversity in the industry—are actually rooted in a systemic failure to understand how power works I'm completely lost here: so the way to solve the problem of people with a lot of power oppressing people wit…

> Isn't this quite close to the idea that somewhat progressive dictators are good? No, it's quite close to the idea that progressive power structures are good, as opposed to anarchy followed by "obviously everything will end up being progressive now that I've torn down the structure of power".

But isn't that why the people behind the Holacracy concept have a whole structure (with pretty pictures!) that is supposed to replace the managerial layer?

http://holacracy.org/how-it-works

I have no idea if holacracy is bullshit or not (it does feel like a concept invented to sell training classes), but claiming it replaces managers with nothing is plainly false.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#48

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

With correlation and causation unknown, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this article.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#49

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

I don't understand why everyone is so excited about this. Any company with more than about 10 employees is going to have some BS drama like this going on.

Did people think github was different because it has a cat/octopus thing for a logo?

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#50
post #2

>In the wake of this, I’m starting to think all of the problems we’re seeing with Silicon Valley these days—the ineptitude at politics, the clumsiness with handling inequality in SF, the lack of gender and racial diversity in the industry—are actually rooted in a systemic failure to understand how power works I'm completely lost here: so the way to solve the problem of people with a lot of power oppressing people wit…

Also, can you expand on what you are digging at with your "kinda ad hominem-y" line? The technology arm of Obama's campaign was generally viewed in a very positive light, as far as I remember. And not the same thing as the brains behind the Obamacare debacle. So I'm not sure what the dig is. Is it because she is a recruiter rather than an engineer? Still not sure how that would disqualify her opinion in this case.

I read it as someone close to the maximum representative of hierarchy (the President of the whole US) having an incentive to discredit less hierarchical systems.
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