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Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

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Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#41

Post by sentenza »

mpyne wrote: post #15

Avoiding it is the easy part. The hard part will be maintaining the Open Internet in the face of what Snowden did. He started to force policymakers to realize that a cypherpunk-style completely open Internet is fundamentally incompatible with both network defense needs, normal law enforcement (not to mention the spy agencies that most countries want to run), and even cultural/jurisdictional questions on things like d…

The EU-only email thing is just a symptom of the broken worldview of some German politicians. They can't admit that they gambled away a lot of our freedom without even being aware of what their actions meant, so they engage in meaningless gestures to hopefully appease the lowly plebs.

If they were honest and serious, they'd just get out there, tell everybody to encrypt everything, change as many laws as possible to force all entities under their control to maintain and transfer data only encrypted and pump money into better crypto.

But as I said, if they were honest and serious...

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#42

Post by suprgeek »

"Can we avoid a Surveillance State" - Very Unlikely.

At every level of the Government, the incentives are perversely aligned against this. The local, city, state & national Govts. all want MORE surveillance not less. They will conitnue to chip-away making it more & more difficult to remain private & anonymous.

The only force combating these pressures is un-organized & semi-organized "concerned" citizens (and a few watchdogs).

What will the outcome be?

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#43

Post by flycaliguy »

lelandbatey wrote: post #37
trekky1700 wrote: post #8

I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

Indeed, I get the feeling that whining isn't the solution; trying to get out in front of it is. As a bit of a social experiment, I acually built this just a couple days ago: http://whereis.lelandbatey.com/ My location is updated via GPS every two minutes, and the last checked in location is marked on the map. I'm curious what will happen, if anything.

You should make it leave a line of where you have been.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#44

Post by swombat »

suprgeek wrote: post #42

"Can we avoid a Surveillance State" - Very Unlikely. At every level of the Government, the incentives are perversely aligned against this. The local, city, state & national Govts. all want MORE surveillance not less. They will conitnue to chip-away making it more & more difficult to remain private & anonymous. The only force combating these pressures is un-organized & semi-organized "concerned" citizens (and a few wa…

Your comment responds to the title without addressing any of the points made in the article. Did you bother reading it?

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#45

Post by vectorpush »

sentenza wrote: post #40
vectorpush wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but we don't spend life at the point of a gun. Don't we? I guess it varies depending on the neighborhood, but there are more guns in the U.S. than cell phones, and it's not just the government that's armed to the teeth, it's everyone from your local mugger to your local teenager (and I'm not just talking about school shooters, I'm talking about adults under 20 who legally hold as well as the range of kids illegally b…

It's not like that in all countries, though. If the technology was inevitably reaching everybody, then guns would be readily available independently of cultural and political frame.

Well no, guns aren't as ubiquitous around the world as they are in the U.S, but they're pervasive enough that every single despot around the world employs guns to the effect of realizing modern dystopias for the unlucky humans who are born into violent oppression. The "inevitability" phase of guns has long passed.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#46

Post by benched »

motters wrote: post #20
trekky1700 wrote: post #8

I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

Mass surveillance isn't inevitable, it's a political decision and a decision which is reversible. PRISM and Xkeyscore didn't invent themselves - they took money and manpower and above all political will to come to fruition. We have nuclear weapons, but nuclear proliferation isn't inevitable. Dismissing people who are opposed to the abuse of technology for purposes which are fundamentally anti-democratic as "illogical…

I don't agree that because a metaphorical 'decision' is a part of a development, that it isn't inevitable.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#47

Post by jnbiche »

lelandbatey wrote: post #37
trekky1700 wrote: post #8

I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

Indeed, I get the feeling that whining isn't the solution; trying to get out in front of it is. As a bit of a social experiment, I acually built this just a couple days ago: http://whereis.lelandbatey.com/ My location is updated via GPS every two minutes, and the last checked in location is marked on the map. I'm curious what will happen, if anything.

I don't get it. How is a real-time update of your personal data "getting out in front of it"? Making surveillance easier doesn't mean we're somehow avoiding a surveillance state.

Why the remark on your web page about "nothing to hide, indeed"?

I do agree that a technological solution is more likely to work at avoiding a complete surveillance state than a political one, short of some miracle.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#48

Post by bduerst »

anigbrowl wrote: post #31
motters wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass surveillance isn't inevitable, it's a political decision and a decision which is reversible. PRISM and Xkeyscore didn't invent themselves - they took money and manpower and above all political will to come to fruition. We have nuclear weapons, but nuclear proliferation isn't inevitable. Dismissing people who are opposed to the abuse of technology for purposes which are fundamentally anti-democratic as "illogical…

Technology is like water, it finds its own level. When you make sensors and storage as cheap as dirt then you're going to end up with widespread deployment. In many polities, people seem to think that the costs are outweighed by the benefits (of improved security and so on). I'm not sure that they are and you are clearly sure that they aren't, but ultimately the criteria for arriving at a given position are arbitrary…

It is an economic inevitability.

Even if lawmakers passed rules preventing the government from doing it, you can bet the private sector would fill the market gap. The value of the data is quickly outstripping the cost of obtaining it.

Better to focus on safety than on prevention.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#49

Post by alexqgb »

bduerst wrote: post #48
anigbrowl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is like water, it finds its own level. When you make sensors and storage as cheap as dirt then you're going to end up with widespread deployment. In many polities, people seem to think that the costs are outweighed by the benefits (of improved security and so on). I'm not sure that they are and you are clearly sure that they aren't, but ultimately the criteria for arriving at a given position are arbitrary…

It is an economic inevitability. Even if lawmakers passed rules preventing the government from doing it, you can bet the private sector would fill the market gap. The value of the data is quickly outstripping the cost of obtaining it. Better to focus on safety than on prevention.

"...you can bet the private sector would fill the market gap."

Not if doing so was a felony. Sometimes, safety IS prevention (see toxic waste / dumping of).

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#50

Post by adamrights »

That's why the importance of removing bad laws off the books, and reforming what we consider essential liberties is so important.

Yes, the observation state is coming as many have said, but how we apply it, and who has the power of checks is the the real question.

If every on foot police officer has a camera on their lapel that any citizen can log in to and monitor, if much of the technology behind the monitoring is transparent -- if the people ultimately control the monitoring and its usage is to detect weapons, explosives and true acts of terror...not petty things like teenagers with pot -- then I believe the coming 'monitored state' will not be as scary.

So the removal of bad laws. Maximum liberty in the privacy of one's house, and then crazy cameras and detectors for explosives and the printed guns et al is where I hope/believe the future can head too.

Call it the green tea party ;p

EDIT: In my world every printed gun, hell every gun taken out of the household needs to be transmitting its location so I can log on to a 'like google maps/latitude' type app and see exactly where any weapons in the public space are...and anyone caught by the monitors or an officer without 'reporting' on their weapons would face the severest of consequences.

On the counter side though, within the house hold, you can print and make whatever you want. You can do the vices you'd like, and you can petition for areas within the public space to do such things, as long as I can also see where it is taking place and avoid if I desire too.

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