Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#41

Post by einhverfr » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 3:12 AM UTC

I have always assumed that depression is at least in large part a social illness.

Of my three children, two were born in Indonesia, and one was born in the US. My wife says that the experience was totally different, and that post-partum depression wasn't really an issue as much in Indonesia because she was surrounded by friends and family for over a month after giving birth (this culminates in a large party after 40 days which has a similar social significance to the older tradition of "churching" and the following "gossip" dinner in Europe). Even something which has as clear neurological strata as PPD has a pretty heavy social component too. (Now obviously this isn't to blame those suffering from PPD, but to note that our society to a large extent makes the problem quite a bit worse.)

Similarly I struggled hard with depression for some time after moving to Indonesia in large part due to the isolation it brought me. Eventually I overcame this by overcoming the isolation.

But beyond that I wonder if developers have a couple of additional strikes against them. I find that it is impossible for me to simultaneously think in machine operations and socially connect. Even when I am around other people, if I am thinking about code, that's isolating. Talking about code is not socializing and I am not sure it can be.

Additionally coding is a sedentary activity and exercise is one thing that also is shown to help avoid and treat depression.

I wonder to what extent we should think about structuring our lives as developers around an extended version of the Greek ideal adding a third component:

A healthy body, a healthy mind, and a healthy social life.

On the management side, I also wonder to what extent ensuring that outings involve mild to moderate physical activity may help too. Lasertag, or indoor rock climbing over movies. If there are people who can't, then looking at finding activities they can do too.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#42

Post by marquis » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 3:34 AM UTC

hrish2006 wrote: post #11

It reminded me of this https://xkcd.com/664/ when I read it. The difference between what is intellectually stimulating and gives you a sense of aesthetic pleasure and joy, and writing something that will work correctly in IE6 is too damn huge.

I just came out of doing that. The first question I got is "That's nice. But can it also do X?". On days like these I consider myself lucky that my boyfriend is also a programmer and we can pat each other on the back.

Having said that, I (in management mode) make an effort to applaud individual success in front of whole team. It's great to get cheers all round from everyone and I feel that it really strengthens us as a group.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#43

Post by geedy » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 4:03 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #26

jokoon wrote: post #17

Got into a video game programming private school, sneaking into 2nd year directly because I was good, was not accepted for the next year. Apparently, it my fault of not trying to reach out to other people for building that school project. I'm more of an introvert, I was already taking anti depressant for 2 years. I'm at the opposite side of a narcissist. Apparently it's a bad thing in society, but nobody really talk…

Going directly into second year is probably a bad idea from a socialisation point of view. When you turn up in college in year one, nobody knows anybody so people have to form peer groups from scratch, thus it's easy to make new friends. If you go into second year these peer groups are already established and it becomes harder to slot yourself in.

Definitely true to a certain degree. But I also think that having the experience of being forced into new friendships in first year gives people more confidence to meet people later. Its a snowball effect of sorts.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#44

Post by wcummings » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 5:47 AM UTC

kelvin0 wrote: post #38

benched wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is one of the most exciting, flow-inducing, mentally stimulating, mathematically and logically enlightening, rewarding activities I do. Programming is one of the most mind-numbing, soul-sucking, procrastination-inducing, lonely, repetitive, mentally exhausting activities I do.

Amen to that. I also feel like there is an 'OCD' part of me that allows me to do the soul sucking stuff, this drains me. I prefer it when the 'creative' part of me is expressing itself, this recharges my batteries.

Pretty sure anyone who has struggled with OCD cringes at hyperbole like this. After you've washed your hands till they bleed, "lol I'm so OCD" gets tiresome. Everyone has quirks, drop the special snowflake shit

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#45

Post by mikeleeorg » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 6:17 AM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #39

mikeleeorg wrote: post #6

If you are an engineering manager, you can see huge gains in team satisfaction and productivity if you are cognizant of issues like this. My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This can include: + Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team a reprieve from the stresses of wor…

> This may give introverts a more comfortable setting, How?

There's been a lot of literature on introversion and extroversion lately. They can explain it much better than I. Here is a good article:

http://blog.bufferapp.com/introverts-and-extroverts-what-the...

I don't mean to imply that introverts like movies and extraverts don't. Only that, as a manager of developers, you should seek to understand the type of people on your team along many different dimensions, introversion and extraversion being one of them. Then cater your activities for those particular people. What worked for the mix of people on my team may not necessarily work for the mix of people on your team.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#46

Post by chris_mahan » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 6:59 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #33

mikeleeorg wrote: post #6

If you are an engineering manager, you can see huge gains in team satisfaction and productivity if you are cognizant of issues like this. My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This can include: + Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team a reprieve from the stresses of wor…

> Lunches This actually reminds me why I think free lunches at company cafeterias might be a net negative. At a more traditional company lunch involves 1. Gathering the group (who wants to go to lunch?) 2. Deciding where 3. Getting in cars 4. Driving to restaurant (5-10 mins) 5. Waiting for seating (5-10 mins) 6. Ordering 7. Waiting for order to arrive (5-10 mins) 8. Eating (10-15 mins) 9. Driving back to work (5-10…

Also, people are a lot less free about what they talk about in the company cafeteria. At a restaurant, especially if there are few people there, they are more likely to speak their mind. That's very important to create rapport.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#47

Post by thelettere » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 8:28 AM UTC

JulianRaphael wrote: post #29

I experienced a very similar situation, resulting in a stress-induced tumor and heavy depression. This experience has completely changed my life and I'm incredibly happy that I got a second chance in life to live a better life. These situations happen because people learn and focus on how to manage the outside world but hardly anyone knows how to manage the inner world. Furthermore, most people don't talk about the s…

The idea that through "powerful therapeutic algorithms" (whatever that is) people can wholly regulate their own emotions is dangerous and false.

We are a social species and need other people to help regulate our emotions. We are not self-sufficient and believing otherwise feeds a dangerous fantasy that will only lead to more suffering.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#48

Post by Sven7 » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 1:11 PM UTC

benched wrote: post #21

michaelochurch wrote: post #7

I think the issue is more that we have a skill that powers the world, but 95% of us are just business subordinates-- not professionals like doctors or professors, not even unionized-- and the 5% who have good jobs at any given time still live under the threat of an unforeseen issue (AI winter, financial crash wiping out the quant jobs, age discrimination, "Series A crunches") putting them back into the EnterpriseJava…

Wow. I could not have stated better exactly how I feel about my career, and what I perceive to be my prospects after 15 years of being 'performance review successful' in this industry. And to those who can't resist giving unsolicited advice like, "It's all you , your choices, and your attitude!" - I've heard that one.

just stay away from impressionable minds

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#49

Post by watwut » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 1:14 PM UTC

mikeleeorg wrote: post #45

Dewie wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This may give introverts a more comfortable setting, How?

There's been a lot of literature on introversion and extroversion lately. They can explain it much better than I. Here is a good article: http://blog.bufferapp.com/introverts-and-extroverts-what-the... I don't mean to imply that introverts like movies and extraverts don't. Only that, as a manager of developers, you should seek to understand the type of people on your team along many different dimensions, introversion…

Isnt it the case that introverts are more comfortable in small groups of people they know well? As long as your team does not have 40+ members, most introverts should be perfectly happy in restaurant with their team.

Some of introverts I know consider themselves extroverts, cause they get very talkative and funny in their group of their friends.

Re: Developer depression: Isolation is the biggest problem (2012)

#50

Post by sethammons » Sat, Feb 22, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #33

mikeleeorg wrote: post #6

If you are an engineering manager, you can see huge gains in team satisfaction and productivity if you are cognizant of issues like this. My suggestion is to take the time to understand each member of your team, then create various interactions that can foster teamwork, satisfaction, etc. This can include: + Lunches or dinners - Going out to a restaurant together can give your team a reprieve from the stresses of wor…

> Lunches This actually reminds me why I think free lunches at company cafeterias might be a net negative. At a more traditional company lunch involves 1. Gathering the group (who wants to go to lunch?) 2. Deciding where 3. Getting in cars 4. Driving to restaurant (5-10 mins) 5. Waiting for seating (5-10 mins) 6. Ordering 7. Waiting for order to arrive (5-10 mins) 8. Eating (10-15 mins) 9. Driving back to work (5-10…

At our company, we get free lunches from a local foodery daily. At lunch time, we all walk over and order food and walk back together and eat together. The 30+ of us typically go in two or three herds around the same time. This is great for our team cohesion. On top of that, a bunch of us go to the gym at the same time. Also great. For skill building, all code is code reviewed unless it was done during pair programming, which we do a lot of. By far, the best group of people and company I've had the opportunity to work with (other reasons too, but these seemed relevant to the topic).