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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

old.ryanfunduk.com

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Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#41

Post by onion2k »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage.

An analogy would be a conference where the evenings entertainment is a competition to see who can piss up a wall the highest. It wouldn't exclude women per se, because they don't have to join in if they don't want to, but you can reasonably see why they might not feel welcome, and why they might complain about it. If a conference wants to appeal to a broad range of people it's the organisers job to make sure the entertainment isn't based around one thing that only appeals to one group, even if that group is a majority.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#43

Post by bowlofpetunias »

VexXtreme wrote: post #24
dangrossman wrote: post #3

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

I'm wondering the same. I never used to see this back when I lived in Europe and I don't see it here in Asia. It's probably fair to call it a SV thing.

In Europe there's usually alcohol and socials, but as far as I have encountered no binge drinking or hard partying.

Nothing anyone who doesn't drink would feel uncomfortable about.

I don't think it has much to do with the presence of bars or alcohol, but more with the local culture. And in the US, the drinking culture as a result of the absurdly high drinking age is totally juvenile. My guess is that programmers fresh out of college bring that culture with them.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#44

Post by pc86 »

stdbrouw wrote: post #18
dangrossman wrote: post #3

Is this a SV thing? Anyone in other cities care to chime in? I've been to a few "camps" and "confs" and tech meetup groups in Philadelphia, and none of them were at bars nor catered with free beer. "We're meeting up at X bar after if anyone wants to come" is a common thing to hear or even see on a schedule, but the actual events are about the panels/speakers/networking... usually with ample time to socialize.

That's part of the problem though: socializing is a really big part of a lot of conferences, and if the people you want to meet are all in a bar, getting a drink, then it can be really hard to say "y'know, I'm just going to get me a sparkling water".

This is just whining.

I don't drink very much at all, maybe one or two drinks every few weeks. I have never been ostracized, ridiculed, or even noticed when I get a Diet Coke (which is obviously not alcohol if you're paying attention, but from across the room who knows) or even a water (which is obviously not alcohol from anywhere because of how it's served).

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#45

Post by ifix »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

"It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers"

And how would religion not fall under this definition?

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#46

Post by donw »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

Exactly. If you don't want to drink, don't drink.

There is a world of difference between being excluded, and feeling excluded. Ryan feels excluded, but I genuinely doubt that people are shunning him because he doesn't have a beer in his hand. He isn't being forced out of interesting conversations because of his sobriety.

I've never once seen binge drinking at a conference. Drinking, sure, but binge drinking implies that people are doing kegstands or something similar.

Now, I don't know Ryan personally, and maybe I'm missing the bigger point, but this blog post reminds me of an Elizabeth Taylor quote: "The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues."

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#47

Post by bowlofpetunias »

As far as I can tell, this is not about alcohol, this is about culture.

Mostly about the immature American drinking culture that is the result of the absurdly high drinking age.

Drinking alcohol getting totally wasted, and the presence and consumption of alcohol does not necessarily lead to an atmosphere where sober people should feel excluded.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#48

Post by 1angryhacker »

The author should probably lighten up, but I agree with the general sentiment.

If you want to drink, hang out with your friends. Your colleagues may also be your friends, or maybe your friends are in the tech scene too, but let's get real, software dev is a job, a career and it puts roofs over people's heads and food on their tables. Treat it with respect.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#49

Post by lmm »

rmk2 wrote: post #7
coldtea wrote: post #2

> It's the booze. You can't go anywhere, do anything or talk to anyone in the tech industry these days without a drink in your hand. If you try to fake it with a soda water you may as well give up trying to have insightful conversations after the first hour, because everyone else is wasted. If "everyone else is wasted" then why should they catter to the non-wasted demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make…

If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be t…

Sarcasm is the lowest form of argument. Go on, expand it out: what are the reasons why that would be a bad thing? Do these reasons also apply to the view in the grandparent post? If so, argue with those reasons.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#50

Post by donw »

kyro wrote: post #39

I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake. I think this is more a persona…

I do this too when I'm not drinking for a period of time (diet). Never had a problem, and I live in Japan, a country that literally has "all you can drink" as an option at most bars.
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