Sounds like Brazil went with the low price leader (French comments were interesting) and didn't miss a chance to stick it in the eye of the US with a couple of anonymous quotes. If you follow the other logic it's pretty depressing "Yes, you had the better technology and were the preferred choice but we went with an inferior product because of spying and no that wouldn't make us feel really stupid if we get into a war with a neighbor who outguns us in the skies because they have better product at least we stuck it to the US in 2013!"
Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
41–50 of 144 posts
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#42Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#43As the article clearly says, this was an off-and-on deal rolling for years.
"Fan fact" the Brazilian government has been seating on this project to renew the aging Air Force's fleet since 1994.
And in 2001/2002 the contenters were (in no specific order):
- Sukhoi Su-35
- Eurofighter Typhoon
- General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16
- Mikoyan MiG-29
- Saab JAS 39 Gripen
- McDonnell Douglas/Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet
- Dassault RafaleRe: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#44Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…
Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?
The Gripen jet fighter was already the Air Force favorite amongst the contenders. In 2009 the President had settled for the Rafale and it caused an uproar in the Air Force as they had not been consulted and had previously expressed that their fighter of choice would be the Gripen. The government had said multiple times that the F-18 was a too costly option, so this statement about the NSA is probably just a way to gain some leverage over the situation.
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#45Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…
Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?
> "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner..
That simply isn't true. The Brazilian government was very clearly pointing towards the Rafale while the air force was somewhat leaning towards the Gripen NG. There was enormous pressure not to drop the F/A-18 altogether, despite the clear shortcomings of Boeing's proposal.
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#46I'm Brazilian. Here's my opinion:
The reason they mention it was the NSA is because the government wants to capitalize on the anti-american commotion (and it's working).
The real reason is that Boeing is a competitor to Embraer, so transfer of technology would be limited. Boeing simply had a worse, more expensive offer.
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#47That's fine as long as we keep Lockheed planes to ourselves. Nothing beats the F22.
The Gripen can land on a relatively short stretch of road, a team of six can get it ready for its next flight and it can take off from the same road. The F22 is not a STOL aircraft. Given standard NATO practice of taking out the radar and the runways in the first few femto-seconds of a 'war', I think this feature makes the Gripen worthy of consideration. That said, do features really matter in the arms trade?
> That said, do features really matter in the arms trade?
I dunno. Will the next serious war use planes at all? Or something smaller (I bet on smaller, for air and water)?
Anyway, Brazilian fighters are modeled to beat a defensive war against Venezuela. I guess the F22 is not the best fighter to use over the Amazon florest (but I don't know muh).
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?
The Gripen jet fighter was already the Air Force favorite amongst the contenders. In 2009 the President had settled for the Rafale and it caused an uproar in the Air Force as they had not been consulted and had previously expressed that their fighter of choice would be the Gripen. The government had said multiple times that the F-18 was a too costly option, so this statement about the NSA is probably just a way to ga…
I love how people keep acting like Brazil is being somewhat evil here by trying to gain leverage...to stop us from constant illegal spying...Yep, super objectionable.
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#49I can't help but get the feeling, especially from the way things are cited in the article, that the NSA spying was not the cause of Boeing's bid souring, but rather that the decision was used as an opportunity to put some pressure on the NSA. Good on them either way. The economic impact is just one of the ways this program hurts Americans as well as foreign nationals.
The F/A-18 had the higher cost of all three final options. Also, the lack of a full technology transfer program (only the Gripen NG proposal had it, including local production) and the possibility of backdoors in any of the multitude of unauditable software systems that fly the planes sealed its fate.
The Rafale was closer, but the high cost of maintenance did it.
Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Gripen jet fighter was already the Air Force favorite amongst the contenders. In 2009 the President had settled for the Rafale and it caused an uproar in the Air Force as they had not been consulted and had previously expressed that their fighter of choice would be the Gripen. The government had said multiple times that the F-18 was a too costly option, so this statement about the NSA is probably just a way to ga…
I love how people keep acting like Brazil is being somewhat evil here by trying to gain leverage...to stop us from constant illegal spying...Yep, super objectionable.
We shouldn't forget the illegal spying happens against American citizens in American soil. I suppose the NSA's charter includes spying on Brazil and they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't spying on us.
Much like we probably try to intercept every communication for of foreign diplomatic missions in Brazilian soil.