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Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

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Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#41

Post by coldtea »

thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

>The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics

Not the "world at large". Just (provincial) middle/upper class America.

>We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.

Shouldn't we in fact try to understand what's going on, instead of trying to change it because of a priori notion that there shouldn't be disparities (which, if disparities exist due to natural forces will be unatural and unjust).

Disparity (e.g less women in Tech) is NOT a problem in itself.

Obstacles to access is a problem (e.g a woman not being let to work Tech -- eg not being hired because she is a woman).

Also, why is IT somewhat different? I don't see much push for more female fishermen or male nurses, to name two random professions with similar disparities.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#42

Post by CJefferson »

ninjac0der wrote: post #23
thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

>far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias. I see more people causing harm trying to ignore natural differences, so I must ask, what have you observed that causes you to believe that? "Don't just stand there, do something."

Looking bad over History, many groups have been denied the right to vote, denied basic human rights, and killed, because it was decided they were different, and therefore this treatment was reasonable.

I am unaware of any reasonable comparisons of where trying to ignore natural differences has caused anything resembling the same level of suffering. I would be interested in some examples you could provide.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#43

Post by octo_t »

ninjac0der wrote: post #23
thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

>far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias. I see more people causing harm trying to ignore natural differences, so I must ask, what have you observed that causes you to believe that? "Don't just stand there, do something."

pretty much every genocide ever?

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#44

Post by tomp »

rayiner wrote: post #34

The problem with his argument is not the statistics, which are sound, but the fact that he begs the question and also ignores some obvious implications of the very data he presents. First, let's talk about mathematical ability. It's widely known that men outnumber women in the upper percentiles of mathematical ability. However, that's an explanation for why there are so few female Fields Medalists (in fact, there are…

It could be the butterfly effect. It starts with children. Better at math -> more interested in math -> better at math -> ... by they time young adults start seeking jobs, a small initial bias has turned into a large gap.

Personally, I don't think that's the whole story (according to my observations, it's also upbringing, girls socialize more than boys, who are more likely to keep to themselves, and differences in topics of interest, which I have no idea what they come from).

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#45

Post by harryh »

coldtea wrote: post #41
thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics Not the "world at large". Just (provincial) middle/upper class America. > We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line. Shouldn't we in fact try to understand what's going on, instead of trying to change it because of a priori notion that there shouldn't be…

IT is different because that's where the money and the power is (compared to fisherman and male nurses).

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#46

Post by ivanca »

thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

>Over the course of history, far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias.

An obvious counterexample would be sexual orientation: believing that being gay is a choice is used by many as an argument to justify discrimination.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#48

Post by ojbyrne »

"If you look at the profiles of Twitter’s board members, you'll notice that all of them either have educational backgrounds in Computer Science and/or have spent decades in the Silicon Valley tech trenches, clearly developing a deep understanding of technology."

I looked at all of the board members, and only 1 out of 7 has a CS background. 4 out of 7 have B.As/MBAs from elite schools, and immediately stepped into executive positions. I guess that's called "the trenches" these days. Their background literally screams "Old Boy's network." Evan Williams and Jack Dorsey have no education information mentioned and I don't think they did much coding on their way up.

So whatever the merits of this article, I don't see how the argument that the cause of this is in any way that not enough women go into STEM fields is a valid one.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#49

Post by ninjac0der »

CJefferson wrote: post #42
ninjac0der wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>far more bad has been wrought by assuming differences were innate than assuming they were the result of bias. I see more people causing harm trying to ignore natural differences, so I must ask, what have you observed that causes you to believe that? "Don't just stand there, do something."

Looking bad over History, many groups have been denied the right to vote, denied basic human rights, and killed, because it was decided they were different, and therefore this treatment was reasonable. I am unaware of any reasonable comparisons of where trying to ignore natural differences has caused anything resembling the same level of suffering. I would be interested in some examples you could provide.

...and they were different, culturally, philosophically, in every case I can think of.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#50

Post by DanBC »

coldtea wrote: post #41
thatthatis wrote: post #8

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics Not the "world at large". Just (provincial) middle/upper class America. > We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line. Shouldn't we in fact try to understand what's going on, instead of trying to change it because of a priori notion that there shouldn't be…

> Disparity (e.g less women in Tech) is NOT a problem in itself.

Sure it is. Lack of diversity means lack of understanding about other uses. It also means that biases can go unchecked, and can develop into accepted wisdom.

> Also, why is IT somewhat different?

Because the (false) reasons given for other occupations don't apply at all for tech. "Men are stronger, that's why you don't get women in construction"; "women are nurturing, that's why they make good nurses".

> I don't see much push for more female fishermen or male nurses, to name two random professions with similar disparities.

Have you looked? I'm not sure about fishermen, but there are many programmes to increase the number of men in nursing, or women in construction.

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