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What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

blog.kunvay.com

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Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#41
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

There are worse things that can happen to you when you work without a contract than simply not getting paid. Contracts also set up liability and contract termination terms, and without that stuff in writing, you can end up in a he-said she-said situation over these issues.

You should always work under a contract. I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#42
post #31
post #11

I'm just going to echo what everyone else is saying: Contract. Contract. Contract. A contract isn't some scary legal document full of cryptic legalese. It's a clear description of what services will be provided and what the compensation will be. And on what schedule everything will happen. With details about what happens if things go south. Most client problems are not as cut-and-dry as "he took all of my work and is…

"Use contracts." First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right. Anyway, for the purpose of what you are saying it doesn't have to be a "formal" contract…

> a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action

I disagree, contracts are much better than an email trail for keeping both parties on the same page. Email trails are murky and take effort to navigate. Emails sometimes lack a complete context. A contract is a canonical text for your work arrangement. Starting your work with a contract is not just good practice to CYA so you get paid, it's a good way to start conversations with your client to make sure you both get what you're looking for and don't want to kill each other (or if you do want to kill the other person you at least have to blame yourself first for agreeing to such foolish terms).

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#43

Recently, I've been using contracts that do not transfer copyright. We grant them unlimited license to our copyrighted content. We also signed an NDA, preventing us from relicensing the codebase to a competitor. We haven't done anything to take advantage of keeping the copyright yet, but I like keeping the rights for ourselves. I imagine of anything it would make it easy for is to open source code that doesn't tie in…

You might fairly consider this an insignificant anecdote, but: I have rejected people for contract work because they insisted on retaining copyright, sometimes on this basis alone.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#44
post #31
post #11

I'm just going to echo what everyone else is saying: Contract. Contract. Contract. A contract isn't some scary legal document full of cryptic legalese. It's a clear description of what services will be provided and what the compensation will be. And on what schedule everything will happen. With details about what happens if things go south. Most client problems are not as cut-and-dry as "he took all of my work and is…

"Use contracts." First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right. Anyway, for the purpose of what you are saying it doesn't have to be a "formal" contract…

> "First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right."

I've been around for some time and I absolutely would not say this. A contract is not primarily about being adversarial. It's about being clear. There's a huge difference. A contract is the end-point of the conversation you have that clarifies as much as you can before anyone starts work or writes a check.

If someone is planning on making your life hell, a contract won't stop them. It's a piece of paper, after all, and, yes, if lawyers have to get involved then pretty much everyone has lost. Preventing that scenario is less about getting a contract and more about learning to assess people and decide who is legitimate and who is full of shit so you can walk away before any contract ever gets written.

(Negotiating a contract, by the way, is a pretty good measure of what it's going to be like to work with someone. Consider it your first project together. If it goes poorly, that might be a bad sign about how the whole project will go...)

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#45
post #31
post #11

I'm just going to echo what everyone else is saying: Contract. Contract. Contract. A contract isn't some scary legal document full of cryptic legalese. It's a clear description of what services will be provided and what the compensation will be. And on what schedule everything will happen. With details about what happens if things go south. Most client problems are not as cut-and-dry as "he took all of my work and is…

"Use contracts." First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right. Anyway, for the purpose of what you are saying it doesn't have to be a "formal" contract…

First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action.

I couldn't disagree more. Usually in this field, unless we're talking about a huge deal, you've both already lost if you get as far as litigation. That implies direct costs, and it implies a breakdown of your business relationship that probably doesn't help anyone accomplish anything or leave anyone's reputation changed for the better.

Contracts serve a valuable purpose long before court filings are involved: the contractual paperwork is where you can both set out, definitively and up-front, your understanding of what the deal is. If there are significant areas of disagreement, it is much better to discuss them and hopefully resolve them amicably before the project starts and either of you has serious skin in the game. If that's not possible, you can both walk with little loss and no hard feelings. It's unlikely to hurt either party's reputation if they want to figure out a different deal with someone else instead, and it leaves the door open to working together on some other project in the future.

It is in everyone's interests to get a clear, genuinely understood agreement written down in a specific, identified version at the start of a project.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#46
post #39
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Use contracts." First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right. Anyway, for the purpose of what you are saying it doesn't have to be a "formal" contract…

Contracts are such a basic fact of business life, universally understood by good-faith vendors and customers, that recalcitrance about signing one should be taken as a "run don't walk" signal. By working without a contract, you doubly imperil yourself: you lose significant legal protections, and also select a client base that is particularly likely to cause you problems down the road. Matasano has many clients we've…

A few points. I'm not stating you are wrong but simply would like anyone reading to see that in business, the way I see it, it's art and not science. "Don't do it" sounds more like science to me. Business to me is art.

1) The dollar amount of the dealings greatly matters as well as the product or service being sold (and who it is being sold to and past history [1]). Matasano is a "real" grown up company. I would imagine the dollar amounts of the charges for what you do are not trivial or small in any way. "not freelance". And what you do has liability consequences as well if you screw up. And you have deep pockets to go after and a liability policy with pockets. [2] A contract of course is called for. Our accounting firm (been dealing with for many years) was just bought out by BDO. They sent a contract or rather a letter of understanding "whatever" that absolves them from any and all liability no matter what. This is after many many years of dealing with the firm they acquired. The legacy firm sent the same letter. Totally ignored it and never sent it back year after year. (Almost as a dare "ok we'll replace you!". They didn't take it personally at all. And if they did who cares?

2) Title of article appears to be targeted toward freelancers. Hence my comments. I'm not directing my thoughts toward Boeing (or Matasano). In other businesses I've dealt with freelancers (non computer, graphics basically) for many years. They do work you pay them. They give a quotation for the work and tell you if you exceed any limits and that it will cost more.

3) Using contracts puts friction in the process and gives people (on certain things, once again, smaller things) a chance to back out and think and delay. So to me there is a certain balance of risk that a freelancer takes (relative to the situation) vs. losing the sale that has to be weighed. Each situation is different. What's the up vs. the downside?

4) Unprofessional is relative to who you are and what you are selling of course. There are many business relationships that are done on a handshake in certain industries. I've been involved in many of them.

5) If you do (for whatever reason) use a contract and the other side doesn't want to sign it I agree that can be a red flag. In general. Once again, depending on the dollar amount. I had a domain broker come to me with a buyer for a domain name that I owned and they sent me a 10 page contract. I said "I'm not reading and reviewing that if you have a buyer I will pay you commission". They said "ok sounds good". And the deal was done and I have the money in the bank. Otoh I sold a domain to a very well known attorney (someone I knew that is well known in the business and everyone loves and even went to the same college) and I waited like 3 months to get the money. Go know.

I will end with a funny story. When I sold my first company a long time ago I asked both the accountant and the lawyer for an estimate of the legal and accounting charges. They both shot me numbers verbally over the phone. After the deal was done I got the bill and it was 2 to 3 times as high as the quote. So I said "you quoted $x what's the story?". They said "oh it was more work". I said "well you should have told me that, how would I know?". The accountant stayed with the quote and is the firm I've referenced above that I am still with to this day. The lawyer thanked me (he had just gone out on his own and left a big firm and had no clue about smaller clients or billing or people using their own money) and told me I had taught him a valuable lesson [3]. He then bought some computer gear from me (to give you an idea of how long ago this was it was a $4500 laser printer). Just to show you that he really was cool with it.

So it wasn't lack of a contract as much as lack of communication possibly that sunk them. And of course had they billed as the work was going on as opposed to all at the end they would have put me on notice despite the original quote (which by the way was stated like a firm quote..)

[1] Which of course is tricky because people and companies change their spots.

[2] As opposed to Dave, out of his house, living from hand to mouth. Nobody is taking "Dave" to court if he screws up.

[3] So in other words he wasn't used to anything but a larger company using someone else's money not an entrepreneur spending his own money.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#47
post #41
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

There are worse things that can happen to you when you work without a contract than simply not getting paid. Contracts also set up liability and contract termination terms, and without that stuff in writing, you can end up in a he-said she-said situation over these issues. You should always work under a contract. I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't.

Eh, I appreciate the effort that is being put into this argument but the reality of it is that it's not for me. If I have to drive an hour to see my client or send a lot of things back & forth in the mail it's really just time wasted.

A good professional relationship & a couple of emails is all I need for freelance. If you're talking about a long-term high dollar amount thing then sure, I understand.

& the reason I don't use one is simple -- I have an hourly rate. Whatever contract we come up with would look like this: "__ is my hourly rate. You will pay __ times the number of hours I worked." This has long been established since the first 1 or 2 interactions with any client and I think is obvious for any hourly service worker. Within the tech industry this is even standard for a lot of corporate consultants (I happen to be one).

For freelance, I provide work estimates but things change. All the comments I see on this thread are like "write a change order for each change, make sure you keep a record of scope". No thanks, not for me. I just give estimates, tell the client when we're going over-budget. If they seem concerned we can talk about it if they say "Keep going no worries" then I keep going, no worries.

I'm not at all saying that contracts aren't useful, it's just that the tech industry is really fast-paced and often involves remote work. If you're really concerned about stuff getting ugly, ask for a contract, sure. But I would do contract with 50% deposit because who actually wants to deal with going to court. At least you'd have 50% to sit on & think.

To each his own but I'm a programmer not a businessman. I net way more money streamlining my coding process than I do thinking about stuff like this.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#48

Recently, I've been using contracts that do not transfer copyright. We grant them unlimited license to our copyrighted content. We also signed an NDA, preventing us from relicensing the codebase to a competitor. We haven't done anything to take advantage of keeping the copyright yet, but I like keeping the rights for ourselves. I imagine of anything it would make it easy for is to open source code that doesn't tie in…

I'd love to hear more details about this. Is this something you came up with yourself, or did you write it with an IP attorney? Would you be willing to share your template agreement somewhere? Has this been a tough sell to any of your clients? Does your agreement include language which either defines what's proprietary or specifies how to define what's proprietary and therefore subject to the NDA?

Here's an excerpt (condensed):

“Work Product” shall mean all design and applications... excluding the “Elements”. Developer assigns to Client all right, title and interest in and to the Work Product. “Elements” shall mean Developer’s algorithms, libraries, scripts, user interface and experience designs, architecture, objects, graphic files, [etc.]. The Elements shall remain the sole and exclusive property of Developer; provided that, subject to/upon full and final payment for the Services, Developer grants to Client a royalty-free, nonexclusive, irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide, subliceseable license in and to the Elements to use in connection with the Application.

So we do give up copyright for the application as a whole "Work Product", but retain the copyright for individual components "Elements".

The client is not in a technical space, and quite frankly doesn't know much about software development. We may be pulling a fast one here that other clients would refuse. In any case, it hasn't caused any problems in our working relationship and everyone's happy.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#49
post #47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are worse things that can happen to you when you work without a contract than simply not getting paid. Contracts also set up liability and contract termination terms, and without that stuff in writing, you can end up in a he-said she-said situation over these issues. You should always work under a contract. I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't.

Eh, I appreciate the effort that is being put into this argument but the reality of it is that it's not for me. If I have to drive an hour to see my client or send a lot of things back & forth in the mail it's really just time wasted. A good professional relationship & a couple of emails is all I need for freelance. If you're talking about a long-term high dollar amount thing then sure, I understand. & the reason I d…

I don't write fiddly "change orders" either. I still work under a contract!

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Use contracts." First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. Otherwise good luck with trying to convert a contract into actual dollars because you are right. Anyway, for the purpose of what you are saying it doesn't have to be a "formal" contract…

First, to state the obvious which anyone who has been around for some time will tell you a contract is only good if the dollar amount is enough to get a lawyer involved as far as filing and pursuing any legal action. I couldn't disagree more. Usually in this field, unless we're talking about a huge deal, you've both already lost if you get as far as litigation. That implies direct costs, and it implies a breakdown of…

Once again, this all depends on the parties and the size of the deal and any past dealings.

I'm not against getting things or putting things in writing. Or having a contract when needed.

My comments relate to the form of that writing and the effort and potential friction vs. what you are trying to protect. Friction which can kill a deal if you have to think out every possibility. Not to mention that it can also work against you.

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