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This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

funding.basicincome2013.eu

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Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#41

Post by jiggy2011 »

dllthomas wrote: post #25
jiggy2011 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that not everybody's costs are the same. A disabled person may have much higher living costs due to needing additional care and special equipment to help them, they also have less chance of gaining employment in order to increase that income. Also consider costs of living/housing etc. For example an unemployed programmer might be better off staying somewhere like SF where costs are higher because they…

"The risk would be that you ended up with low cost of living slum areas where the unemployed would congregate , separate from the productive economy." But in this case, they would be able to offer each other money for providing each other services. Congregations of people would inherently be able to realize some demand, which is not presently the case (or that demand is filtered through bureaucrats).

Maybe, but the same could probably be said about the favelas in Brazil. It probably makes some sense to subsidize people to live in the area where there is currently the most opportunity for them.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#43

Post by anoncowherd »

RivieraKid wrote: post #22
sz4kerto wrote: post #4

"Unconditional basic income is a new form of total social security for all citizens. It’s an unconditional monthly sum, paid out to by the government to every citizen - rich or poor, old or young, employed or unemployed." Well, they should have written "Unconditional basic income is a new form of total social security for all citizens. It’s an unconditional monthly sum, taken from taxpayers and paid out to every citi…

That's equivalent, everyone knows government gets its money from taxpayers.

That's exactly what he wanted to emphasize.

People think government has some magical, limitless supply of money available to them, when in reality, it's mostly just money that's forcefully confiscated from everyone.

In other words, basic income is a zero-sum game, but not without its consequences. It's alright not to go into printing or loaning money here, both of those lead to ruin too.

How high would tax rates have to be, to collect enough money for basic income? How many businesses would just shut down or get the fuck out, leaving that much fewer businesses in the country to shoulder the burden? That's a feedback loop right there. The remaining businesses would be just that much more likely to get out too, and then the next remaining, and so on.

The idea of basic income is not rooted in reality, but entitlement and the need for "security", no matter how illusory it might be.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#44

Post by jaibot »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #17
jaibot wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Combined with some progressive taxation this works out to be massively more efficient and helpful than most other forms of welfare. Replace foodstamps/subsidized housing/unemployment-insurance/myriad-of-other-safety-net-programs with a basic guaranteed income and everyone is better off. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income .

The problem is that not everybody's costs are the same. A disabled person may have much higher living costs due to needing additional care and special equipment to help them, they also have less chance of gaining employment in order to increase that income. Also consider costs of living/housing etc. For example an unemployed programmer might be better off staying somewhere like SF where costs are higher because they…

Good points, especially the varying cost-of-living associated with medical conditions. The obvious gets-us-most-of-the-way-there solution is to have those costs covered by a generous healthcare system as a separate matter from guaranteed income.

Living in SF is a good, like a car or a degree. All of those things help you get a job, but it should be up to you which of those you choose to invest in. Throwing in cost-of-living adjustments is equivalent to a guaranteed income except that the government requires you to spend $X on housing - it's strictly worse for everyone.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#45

Post by berdario »

kfk wrote: post #11
[deleted] wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

And let's not forget how racist we (Europe) become when it comes to immigration from these poor countries. I have a proposal, let's open the gates of Europe to everybody that doesn't have a criminal record.

I agree with you, especially on open borders, but:

a system like this may actually mean to cut spending on a lot of bureucracy... and its aim it's probably not growth, but rather a decent living standard for every person

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#46

Post by RivieraKid »

One important advantage of BI would be that it would allow the labor market to be more liberal (especially in Europe, I don't know about the situation in the US). Employees wouldn't need to be protected that much, because they would be less scared of being fired.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#47

Post by JackFr »

JanezStupar wrote: post #24
KiwiCoder wrote: post #9

I'd not heard of the basic income concept until now so my reaction might be naive, but what benefit could possibly justify the collection and redistribution of a fixed amount of cash to everyone , regardless of their situation? For example, if 1 person in 10 is thirsty, what benefit derives from giving water to all 10 versus the 1 - isn't that simply a wasteful distribution of resources? Even in the extreme case wher…

In quite a lot of Europe we have social support schemes that are supposed the same net effect. Except if you are unemployed for more than X. Or if you have more than a minimal wage on your bank account. Or.. Or.. Or.. All these exceptions are meant to cut social support from people who are not entitled to it. While in reality they usually hurt people who have no means to be really productive. Quite a lot of resources…

> Especially because we can afford it.

You mean you can afford it. How do you know if I can afford it? By necessity, to implement this, you've got to take money from people and give it to other people.

Your assumption is that by rights any one in the category of those losing money, is making so much that they lack any moral claim to it.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#48

Post by anoncowherd »

kfk wrote: post #7

I will never support this idea. This is kind of thinking is extremely nationalistic: I am entitled to free money because I was born in XYZ. On top of this, this idea has very weak economics fundamentals, there is no prove that growth comes from redistributing wealth. There is plenty of prove growth comes from innovation and innovation comes from people actually working. We are in denial. The whole Europe is in denial…

Good to see someone thinking for himself here.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#49

Post by rattray »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #17
jaibot wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Combined with some progressive taxation this works out to be massively more efficient and helpful than most other forms of welfare. Replace foodstamps/subsidized housing/unemployment-insurance/myriad-of-other-safety-net-programs with a basic guaranteed income and everyone is better off. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income .

The problem is that not everybody's costs are the same. A disabled person may have much higher living costs due to needing additional care and special equipment to help them, they also have less chance of gaining employment in order to increase that income. Also consider costs of living/housing etc. For example an unemployed programmer might be better off staying somewhere like SF where costs are higher because they…

Universal health care is prevalent in Europe and might alleviate the effect of 1).

The situation you describe in 2) is the status quo, no? UBI would mean more money for those who've been looking for a job for a long time.

Re: This basic income crowdfunding campaign reached its goal in less than 48 hours

#50

Post by JackFr »

w_t_payne wrote: post #42

With little administrative overhead, this should be a more effective way of stimulating demand than QE.

Even if I assume your premise, why would you assume that this is a more effective way of stimulating demand? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing its just not obvious to me that one mechanism is better than the other.)
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