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The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

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Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#41

Post by ufukbay »

vidarh wrote: post #35
beloch wrote: post #19

To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of the symbolism used by European r…

> The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Maybe that was the primary motivation, but Turkey has also been unusually brutal about trying to force minorities to embrace Turkish culture. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used to know a Turkish journalist that was forced to flee after repeated dea…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country.

I'm a German-born Turk who lives in Germany (Berlin) and I don't have a problem that I had to learn German at school. For me, it's self-explanatory that I have to learn German sooner or later if I plan to live in Germany. It's the same case for everyone who prefers to work and live in a foreign country.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#42

Post by ern »

ufukbay wrote: post #41
vidarh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Maybe that was the primary motivation, but Turkey has also been unusually brutal about trying to force minorities to embrace Turkish culture. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used to know a Turkish journalist that was forced to flee after repeated dea…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country. I'm a German-born Turk who lives in Germany (Berlin) and I don't have a problem that I had to learn German at school. For me, it's self-explanatory that I have to learn German sooner or later if I plan to live in Germany. It's the same case for everyone who prefers to work and live in a…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country.

I guess it comes down to how the minority group ended up where it is, and how one would define a "foreign country". If a group of people migrate voluntarily, the receiving country would have a legitimate expectation that they'd learn the language, and adopt at least some aspects of the dominant culture.

If a group is conquered (or enslaved), or through some accident of history ends up a minority, I personally don't believe they should be coerced into adopting the ways of the majority. It would be compounding an injustice.

I'm not sure where the Kurds fit in to this - did they really "choose" to live in modern Turkey, the way that Turks who migrated to Germany did?

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#43

Post by dmxmaybe »

ufukbay wrote: post #41
vidarh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Maybe that was the primary motivation, but Turkey has also been unusually brutal about trying to force minorities to embrace Turkish culture. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used to know a Turkish journalist that was forced to flee after repeated dea…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country. I'm a German-born Turk who lives in Germany (Berlin) and I don't have a problem that I had to learn German at school. For me, it's self-explanatory that I have to learn German sooner or later if I plan to live in Germany. It's the same case for everyone who prefers to work and live in a…

Yes, but the Kurds in Turkey aren't immigrants. Their families didn't choose to be minorities in an oppressive state, Turkey decided to take their land. They didn't land on plymouth rock, plymouth rock landed on them.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#44

Post by mogrim »

ufukbay wrote: post #41
vidarh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Maybe that was the primary motivation, but Turkey has also been unusually brutal about trying to force minorities to embrace Turkish culture. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used to know a Turkish journalist that was forced to flee after repeated dea…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country. I'm a German-born Turk who lives in Germany (Berlin) and I don't have a problem that I had to learn German at school. For me, it's self-explanatory that I have to learn German sooner or later if I plan to live in Germany. It's the same case for everyone who prefers to work and live in a…

It's not a foreign country, though - they're not immigrants.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#45

Post by vidarh »

ufukbay wrote: post #41
vidarh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Turkish alphabet might be interpreted by some as a form of oppression, but it's adoption was more about breaking with the past and embracing democracy and the west. Maybe that was the primary motivation, but Turkey has also been unusually brutal about trying to force minorities to embrace Turkish culture. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used to know a Turkish journalist that was forced to flee after repeated dea…

I don't quite understand why minorities have to have everything in their native language if they chose to live in a foreign country. I'm a German-born Turk who lives in Germany (Berlin) and I don't have a problem that I had to learn German at school. For me, it's self-explanatory that I have to learn German sooner or later if I plan to live in Germany. It's the same case for everyone who prefers to work and live in a…

Firstly, they are not immigrants. Turkey is home to a substantial Kurdish minority that predates the establishment of the Turkish state.

Secondly, this is not about having all things in their native language, but about the fact that in many situations using Kurdish will land you in prison, even when speaking to other people whose primary language is Kurdish.

Until recently, a political party that dared distribute material in Kurdish risked being banned from elections, and people involved risk going to prison.

And a 2010 report I linked to elsewhere points out that Turkish officials that dare to use Kurdish in official communication - even if in a Kurdish area, communicating with Kurds - risked prison just a few years ago.

None of that is the case in Germany. In fact, specifically to the Kurds, you will find quite a few Turkish Kurds in Germany who enjoy a lot more freedom to use and learn their language in ways that would at least until recently have put them at risk of prison in their ancestral homes in Turkey.

Further to your school example, it is well established that being given the opportunity to learn your primary home language well is critical to learning another language at school. As such, forcing kids that speak Kurdish at home to learn only Turkish at school places them at a severe disadvantage. If the goal is to give these kids a the best possible chance of getting good at Turkish, the best way of achieving that is to offer them training in Kurdish too.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#46

Post by vidarh »

teamonkey wrote: post #40
diorray wrote: post #4

Actually it was never illegal in Turkey. Q, W, X just not allowed to be used in people/company names because they're not in Turkish alphabet. I think this news mislead by AKP as usual.

The Turkish 'Q' layout is the most commonly used in Turkey and includes these 'illegal' letters. If these letters were truly illegal it'd be hard to imagine this keyboard standard existing.

That's like saying it'd be hard to imagine being able to buy alcohol due to prohibition. But in any case, there little doubt that Turkey has reformed a lot over the last two decades in particular, but the original claim I addressed was the claim that "it was never illegal in Turkey".

I posted a link to a copy of the text of the law in question. Maybe it's an inaccurate copy. Maybe it was repealed before it came into force. Maybe the translation is even more broken than it appears. Yet if so, it ought to be easy for the people that are so insistent that it was never illegal to find documentation, such as the real text of the law, a better translation, or documentation of its repeal. Yet none of that appears to be forthcoming, just a stream of examples of recent usage of the letters from after Turkish society started reforming, 50-60 years or so after the law in question was passed.

It's great if the problem has been rectified. But that is far away from claiming it never existed in the first place.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#47

Post by makmanalp »

This is a bit like one of those archaic laws like how in Staten Island, can only water your lawn if you hold the hose in your hand. No one actually gives a shit, and no one even knows that this was illegal in the first place.

Both Turkish Q and F keyboard layouts have Q, W and X on them. Everyone uses them all the time, always. You can't use them in your official company name, but that's usually not your publicly visible brand name anyway. E.g. "Biletix", a ticketing company (it was acquired by ticketmaster, but it was called that before the acquisition) http://www.biletix.com/anasayfa/TURKIYE/tr

I don't think the article itself is shooting for this, but the current AKP government is trying to spin this inane and pointless change as "democratization". If they want to democratize things and appeal to oppressed minorities, they can start by taking thought criminals out of prison.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#48

Post by malkia »

mda wrote: post #26
beloch wrote: post #19

To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of the symbolism used by European r…

A correction, Ottomans started talking about having a constitutional monarchy in early 19th century and first constitutional government officially started in 1876. However this was short lived and constitution changed 2 years later to weaken the parliament. Second constitutional era starts in 1908 and ends with the collapse of the empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Deputies_(Ottoman_Em... So first steps…

Interresting! That's the time when in Bulgaria (part of the Ottoman empire then) started the April Uprising to liberate itself - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Uprising - and later in 1878 leading to independence for some of the territory, while full one was gained much later.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#49

Post by afsina »

diorray wrote: post #24
ozgung wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such manipulations are typical for the pro-Islamic AK Party. This was not a democratic reform, it's just propaganda. There are no x, w, q letters in Turkish language hence no place for them in Turkish alphabet. A true democratic reform would be to legalize the Kurdish alphabet and the Kurdish language as a separate language. (And I'm saying that as a so-called 'Kemalist')

+1. And they're step by step trying to create jihadist Turkey just like Iran: http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5756/77201414.jpg (before - after)

If I had a penny for every time I heard that claim... 30 years ago they used to use the same scare sentence over and over. Please get over with it.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#50

Post by gohrt »

thret wrote: post #2

The first comment has a link to this article: http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two... Wow.

That's a sad story, and the alphabet caused some confusion, but the cell phone didn't kill anyone. Ermine's sociopathic father and Turkey's misogynistic culture set the stage for a man to man to lead is futher to gang-murder someone over an oblique and ungramattical insult to sexual purity.
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