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Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

slate.com

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Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#41

Post by crygin »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

Congratulations, you've discovered the bell curve (plus a healthy dose of physical attributes that provide you with positive advantages in our society). We congratulate you for being on the nice side of it.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#42

Post by cmyr »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

Those words are salon's, not the researchers, and they're a headline at that. I wouldn't assume that "it's nurture!" is the ultimate conclusion of this work. I'd suggest they're saying something more along the lines of, "Children who converse less then their peers are less likely to excel".

There is zero doubting that 'nature vs. nurture' is a complicated question (and a false dichotomy) and I don't think this article is making any claims outside of it's pretty narrow (and pretty interesting) focus.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#43

Post by joelgrus »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

I'm totally willing to buy that talking to kids is good for them ("massively positively" strikes me as overstating the case) and that screen time rots their brains and their ability to ... um ... I forget.

But, as a parent, I have experienced that children are born with a ton of individual personality that is highly noticeable within days. It would be pretty much defy logic (as well as genetics) if some sort of predisposition for intelligence weren't part of this.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#44

Post by Kudzu_Bob »

a3voices wrote: post #15

I think it's also the same with pet dogs, at least with the intelligent breeds. If you have a border collie, talking to it a lot makes it smarter. At least it seems that way.

You should write that up and submit it to Slate. I'm sure that they would publish it.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#45

Post by nightski »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

Could it of been the fact that you were in such an environment, and had such a desire for something different be the source of your inspiration? I am not even talking money necessarily here, but the lack of intellectual stimulation? That made the doses you received all that much more intoxicating?

All I am saying is that a particular environment can affect someone in unexpected ways.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#46

Post by codex »

nightski wrote: post #45
electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

Could it of been the fact that you were in such an environment, and had such a desire for something different be the source of your inspiration? I am not even talking money necessarily here, but the lack of intellectual stimulation? That made the doses you received all that much more intoxicating? All I am saying is that a particular environment can affect someone in unexpected ways.

Why do you think his other family members did not share this desire?

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#47

Post by protomyth »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

The title is bunk, but interaction is critical. Also, screenings (starting withe the Denver and going to something like the E-LAP / LAP) are an important item. Correcting an issue at the earliest possible age is important.

Kids are different and are individuals. Genetics, nutrition, interaction, and care all count.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#48

Post by ballard »

ianb wrote: post #27

I am disappointed when I hear the term "socio-economic factors" in discussions of education. First, as if "economic" wasn't enough you add in "socio" to create a term that means "factors coming from every part of a person's life". Of course there are socio-economic factors. But I dislike it particularly because often it feels like a statement: we don't know what the causes are (which is why we make the weakest possib…

Some of the best hackers &| hustlers I know come from average to slightly-below average backgrounds. The biggest challenge for anyone, given any background, is what they tell themselves they can't do.

In addition to talking, it's important that the parent is a decent human-being. An awful person interacting with a kid probably does more harm than good. I don't think there's much correlation with decency and socioeconomics.

--

"Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry and no feelings." - Gordon Gekko

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#49

Post by codex »

Alex3917 wrote: post #9
pg wrote: post #5

I don't know whether this is true, but it feels true, and I've been operating as if it were.

C.f. the cited book by Hart & Risley, Meaningful Differences In The Everyday Experiences of Young American Children. "The more parents talked to their children, the faster the children's vocabularies were growing and the higher children's IQ test scores at age 3 and later. [...] [By age 4], an average child in a professional family would have the accumulated experience with almost 45 million words, an average child i…

How did the researchers determine causation? What if there is simply a gene for strong language which is responsible both for the parents' financial success and the child's academic success, and the extra words were simply a by product?
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