The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot • Hacker News Board

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#41

Post by dnautics » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:20 AM UTC

nknighthb wrote: post #31

dnautics wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. But government is required to treat all people alike. I think this is a reasonable requirement, given that you cannot 'opt out' of government. If you want to set up a private universal health care charity fund, I would happily cut a recurring check to help your cause, assuming some basic transparency and accountability. At least, if you mess up your charity and start, say, embezzling funds, I can opt out. http:…

Your misunderstanding of the equal protection clause has no basis in reality. The government is absolutely allowed to treat different situations differently. There is no legally recognized interpretation of the constitution -- none -- that would require the government to give person A a treatment inappropriate for A just because it gave person B the same treatment which was appropriate for B.

of course, the government SHOULDN'T give person A an inappropriate treatment just because it's what it would give to person B. Becuase that would be stupid. But what does it give person A? Perhaps it can offer person A nothing. Then, how is that fair and equal?

that's exactly why the only solution is the null solution.

Bottom line: we need to live in a society where people actually help each other and actually show compassion, not create rediculous byzantine bureaucracies that marginally help the rich and politically well-connected that are an empty simulacrum of compassion.

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#42

Post by alexqgb » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:20 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #24

purplelobster wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, you're close enough to the truth. The only thing that stands in the way of dignified living for everybody is people like you. There is enough resources in this world (especially the US). Why should kids everywhere live in poverty, starve and not be given the same opportunity under the same conditions as more fortunate kids (well fed, good schools) because their parents couldn't find or hold down a job? In…

because we all know that then all kids would be hungry and not educated not only the poor ones. Somehow socialism always ends up making everyone equally poor and not equally rich. I read recently that in Canada waiting time for some surgeries are 6 months. For everyone. People who can afford and people who can't afford. Everybody screwed over. But of course that's what socialism is all about - making all people equal…

Well said good sir! Your grasp of basic facts about the world is truly impeccable. Why, I myself just got back from Sweden where I had a layover on the flight from Mozambique. Or did I stop in Mozambique on my way back from Sweden? Now that I think about it, I can't be sure! I mean, honestly, who can tell them apart? Not me! Or you!

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#43

Post by throwaway9848 » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:21 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #24

purplelobster wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, you're close enough to the truth. The only thing that stands in the way of dignified living for everybody is people like you. There is enough resources in this world (especially the US). Why should kids everywhere live in poverty, starve and not be given the same opportunity under the same conditions as more fortunate kids (well fed, good schools) because their parents couldn't find or hold down a job? In…

because we all know that then all kids would be hungry and not educated not only the poor ones. Somehow socialism always ends up making everyone equally poor and not equally rich. I read recently that in Canada waiting time for some surgeries are 6 months. For everyone. People who can afford and people who can't afford. Everybody screwed over. But of course that's what socialism is all about - making all people equal…

What a bunch of nonsense. If you look at aggregate numbers, people in socialist countries on the average are healthier and live longer. And the children of Canada, France, Britain, Norway, and so on do not go hungry. Amazing!

I don't even agree with a lot of western European style socialism, but it sucks that because of people like you we can't even have an honest, adult conversation about it. Thanks loads.

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#44

Post by mason55 » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:21 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #29

robbiep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you need lifesaving surgery, you get it. And you don't get a bill that ends up costing a second mortgage. Elective procedures - that's a different story. But it is location specific, and in many countries with mixed public/private systems you can pay through your nose if you like anyway

yeah, like bribes to doctors so they actually perform this cancer tumor surgery to my dad instead of asking him to wait in line for months more. Seen a doctor? Has a belly and a family. Needs money. Simple. But some idiots believe in "free". There is no free. You pay a ton of money for healthcare in any system.

> There is no free. You pay a ton of money for healthcare in any system.

I'm confused. Is your argument that universal health care is more expensive than the current US system? Most studies have shown that to be false.[1]

I don't think anyone believes that universal health care is free.

[1] http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/21/4/88.long

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#45

Post by robbiep » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:21 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #28

robbiep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you need lifesaving surgery, you get it. And you don't get a bill that ends up costing a second mortgage. Elective procedures - that's a different story. But it is location specific, and in many countries with mixed public/private systems you can pay through your nose if you like anyway

who gets to decide what is lifesaving and what is elective?

In australia if you're in a hospital and you need surgery, you get it. Today if necessary.

Nothing needs 'approval'. Because everyone has the same insurer (The government), if you present to a hospital you are triaged according to your risk and treated appropriately. No 'approval' and no 'rejection'. It just happens.

And if you have osteoarthritis of your knees and want surgery in the private system (which can generally happen on demand instead of - because it is an emergent/elective condition - some time between now and 12 months from now) then you can go ahead and organise that.

If you would like to read a media release by the College of Surgeons have a look at [1] which not only describes emergency and elective but talks about about how surgery is managed in the hospital.

whoops, missed the link. [1] http://www.surgeons.org/media/307115/sbm_2011-05-24_separati...

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#46

Post by disbelief » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:21 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #24

purplelobster wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, you're close enough to the truth. The only thing that stands in the way of dignified living for everybody is people like you. There is enough resources in this world (especially the US). Why should kids everywhere live in poverty, starve and not be given the same opportunity under the same conditions as more fortunate kids (well fed, good schools) because their parents couldn't find or hold down a job? In…

because we all know that then all kids would be hungry and not educated not only the poor ones. Somehow socialism always ends up making everyone equally poor and not equally rich. I read recently that in Canada waiting time for some surgeries are 6 months. For everyone. People who can afford and people who can't afford. Everybody screwed over. But of course that's what socialism is all about - making all people equal…

You might want to base your opinion on more than one thing you read somewhere. I have a friend who was diagnosed with cancer in Canada and was in surgery with one of the top surgeons in the country in under a week. That plus a lengthly stay in the hospital and all of the drugs associated with cancer were 100% covered by our healthcare system. How is this poverty?

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#47

Post by dnautics » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:24 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #36

dnautics wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, I found it, after all these years: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160131 as a bonus, here is the review on why asians should take less statins (hepatic enzyme clearance, probably a cyp450): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17261409

That's not a consequence of being non-white so much as it is a consequence of your doctor being uninformed, which impacts people of all races. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, I just take issue with your narrative of how race is the issue at hand, and how the medical system is bigoted towards minorities.

It's not just the medical system. It's just reality. I live with it. I'm okay with it. I'd just rather not these disparities be magnified and exacerbated by universalizing something which shouldn't be.

>That's not a consequence of being non-white so much as it is a consequence of your doctor being uninformed, which impacts people of all races.

But it impacts minorities in the most general sense (i.e. not just color of skin) more than non-minorities. For fundamental reasons, studies are less statistically reliable, for starters.

I should remind you also that my father is being cared for under a universal system (the VA) I think that the unversality of it does play into the way that the doctors are informed.

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#48

Post by pvarangot » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #20

adambard wrote: post #3

Can I be the first non-US citizen in this thread express my incredulity that anything less than universal health care is tolerated? "Barbaric" is the term that seems to strike me whenever I hear of it, hyperbolic though it may be.

the only difference is that in socialized medicine you wait for life saving surgery for months even when you have money to pay for it. So everybody suffers.

You do realize saying "in socialized medicine" is as vague as saying "in every other country in the world" don't you?

There are 193 members states in the UN, of those 192 have a health care system that I would bet nearly 100% of americans would call "socialized medicine" in a poll. That includes countries like Sweden with completely state controlled top of the line healthcare, also England with state regulated prices for the private sector and also a top 5 in any reasonable metric health care system, or Panama/Argentina/Brazil with a mixed public and private not-top-of-the-line-but-reasonably-working system that includes very cheap private health insurance. It also includes Cuba, that has a very dfferent system than lets say Russia or Chile.

Your remark is as vague and irrelevant as saying "the only difference between HN readers and the rest of the world is that the former usually make vague and irrelevant remarks based on their personal beleifs".

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#49

Post by markost » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

a3n wrote: post #10

sliverstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, Americans are practically drooling Cro-magnons for not having universal health care. We know, we've heard it countless times before, and I'm not sure it contributes anything to the discussion other than a smug sense of self-superiority for the non-American readers.

As an American I agree, it's terrible not having universal healthcare. What's the point of being a large body if we don't take advantage of that? And if we don't, we really aren't anything except individuals. Nothing wrong with being an individual, but we can be and accomplish so much more together. Apart, we're just living in the same place.

Did you reply to the wrong comment?

Re: The $200K lesson I learned from getting shot

#50

Post by taylodl » Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 2:26 AM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #24

purplelobster wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, you're close enough to the truth. The only thing that stands in the way of dignified living for everybody is people like you. There is enough resources in this world (especially the US). Why should kids everywhere live in poverty, starve and not be given the same opportunity under the same conditions as more fortunate kids (well fed, good schools) because their parents couldn't find or hold down a job? In…

because we all know that then all kids would be hungry and not educated not only the poor ones. Somehow socialism always ends up making everyone equally poor and not equally rich. I read recently that in Canada waiting time for some surgeries are 6 months. For everyone. People who can afford and people who can't afford. Everybody screwed over. But of course that's what socialism is all about - making all people equal…

Did you check out the author of what you read and what agenda they may have had? Plus the term "some surgeries" is pretty vague, indicative of hand-waving.

But consider the alternative - without insurance or money your waiting time for surgery is...forever.

All health service is rationed. Our system simply doesn't ration it to those needing it most, instead rationing it to those with the most money. You can see the effects of our system with all the new "designer hospitals" they're building these days. By focusing on the affluent we're pricing health care out of reach of those of modest means. There are reasons health care costs in the United States have been rising several times more than the rate of inflation for the past 30 years. And none of those reasons paint a good portrait of our health care system.